Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance cylinder heads

Gentleman,
I was talking to the Trick Flow People at the NSRA nationals in Louisville, about the possibility of aquiring a set of castings to build a head for my 250. I explained how it is made and they said they might be interested in manufacturing a six cyl. head if there was enough interest. So are we interested and if so let them know. There E-mail addresses are:
techinfo@trickflow.com
customerservice@trickflow.com
dealersales@trickflow.com
My thoughts are that if an alum. 12 port head with good flow was available near the price of a set of small block chevy heads there would be a market for them.
big bill

Mike Kirby already has a Alum Head. If i can't afford to buy His Why in the heck would I buy someone elses. Who I know realy wouldn't be any cheaper. AND I DOUT it would be. Secondly If there was a Higher market (meaning people buying them) Mike wouldn't have his sitting on the shelf waiting for people to buy them He'd be making More.Thirdly I dout they will put in the time Like Mike Has into the developing the high flowing head he has now.

And Most don't have OR want to spend the money on a Good Flowing Cast head Let alone spend the money on a Alum head from someone who has never even Touched a L6 head cast or other wise.

Just My2cents.

Well a little info here, Mike does not have any heads sitting on his shelves. He sold all his heads. Douglas is waiting for Mike to have some new heads casted. Hopefully by the end of the year Mike will have some casted.
I would say,there are not enough people interested for any Co to make some nice flowing alum,six cyl heads.
I could be wrong though?
If the inline Chevys were popular enough parts would be a lot cheaper. But there not, try & buy forged 307 Chevy V-8 pistons, those work in a 250 inline Chevy. Not available.

If the cost was around $1200 - $1500 I think they would sell. A good valve job with lump ports and pocket porting locally is about $850 and we're still stuck with the simease port. While Mike's heads are good the cost is too steep for most folks including myself.

Yes, me too! If someone could sell me a good flowing, complete alum. head for my 250 for $ 1500, I would have got one already.

if you check the classifieds you will see some one has the molds for sale for heads for the 6 and 4.

the problem is most people with a 6 are cheap. look at a lot of the postings, i dont have a lot of money to spend or i dont want to spend a lot of money. when told to send their heads to a good shop they take them to the local butcher shop and get a half ass job. some too cheap to even buy a shop manual to find out the tourk specs.


the 6 is either a work horse truck or a well put together proformance motor.

maybe with gas getting more expensive the 6 will make a come back.

I believe that people are getting tired of looking at sbc's on every car they look at,IMHO.15-20 years ago there was hardly anything for late model Mustangs,big block Cadillac,Olds,Pontiac,etc.Now there's an Al head for just about anything out there.I will consider an aftermarket Al head with improvements to the casting in the 1k range that may not be a high perf. type since my intended use will be the street and not the strip.Street minded performance is using the same hard parts that were being used 40 or more years ago.With the heads being affordable the intakes and exhaust components will follow,EFI and forced induction could become very feasable for those inclined to go that route.I've always try to support niche vendors on my obsession with my vehicles but I like to take advantage of situations if they appear,I'll say that if I could open, say,a Summit catalog one day and see an inline six head listed there,that would be a good day .Hector.

sorry if i was a little rough last post.

but to get the good prices you have to have a lot of sales.

example 350 chevy rebuild kit my cost just under $200. now for a 265 that i am doing same kit my cost $500. did a 57 buick last year that kit was $1,000. even the rings bearings and gaskets for my 4 cyl. allis-chamers tractor was more then a 350 kit with new pistons.

so that is where you are if there is not atleast 100,000 people willing to pay that 1k for that six head it is not going to happen.

thta is why i always liked the 6 because you could not open a catalog and build one with your cradit card. you have to make your own parts.

Guys if they build a head it would be with the flow technology they already have for small block chevys and I don't know what they could be sold for that is not my problem it is theirs the question was would we be interested in a head that that sold in the thousand to fifthteen dollar range. As was mentioned earlier how big is the market for some of the odd V-8s we are seeing heads for today. with the modern computer design once you have a working design it is not a major job to transfer that technology to a different motor, it comes down to physics. I did not want to stir up a hornet's nest I just wanted to make you aware of a conversation that took place which could produce a new line of parts for our sixes. We can say that it will never happen or that it would cost to much money but we will never know what might happen unless we encourage people to supply us with new parts. Probably years ago some people thought Mike Kirby and Leo was foolish and that they could never make a boat anchor six run even fast enough to beat a flat head Ford let alone a small block chevy, and we all know the people must have been right surely that smoke we see coming off of those six cyl cars tires is just trick photography.
big bill

FYI, even if you want some great flowing heads for a SBC it will cost you $1200. min to $2200.00 ported, I know you see them cnc ported advertized flowing 300+ some odd cfm ,but a lot of Co BS in there advertizement.
Chevy v-6 heads are more popular than our inline Chevy's & they will set you back $2200.00 min w/porting.

world or dart heads for a sbc will set you back about 600 ready to run. at that price they are not even redoing after they wear out.

the deppe patterns are for sale for a 12 port head. all you have to do is buy them then get a foundry to cast some. then get them machined and put together then try to sell them. aris bought the howard head patterns for the gmc. and they did not do to well.

Inliners, Time to read your copy of The 12 Port News.

Inliners International has been offered a 12 port heads by Frank Duggan in Australia. These heads are capable of 2 HP per cube. They bolt direct to a 230/250/292. They come complete except for headers and carb. The price is a little over Trickflows top price.

Thank you Herbert D. Hall for two excellent articles on 12 port heads.

Larry

Just one cylinder head has been offered?
Any price??? You get an intake manifold??

Hank, My apologise I left the (s) of head. There is a choice of a 4 barrel intake or 3 Webers. The intake is included, the carbs are not included. Without the valve installed you can look down the port and see the top of the piston. I only have the Inliners International price. You can contact;
Duggan Engineering
50 Newlands Road Reservoir 30773
Victoria, Australia, Melbourne
phone (03)469-4550 or (03)460-9943

Larry

Hank, To be fair I think I've already come close enough. When you consider what a good lump port head will cost. According to the Mr. Halls article this head was used in a 1979 L/Gas Corvette built by Olsen and Mattel running a 230 L6 putting out 460HP. Unfortunately no times were given, perhaps some one can find them. Since your in the business Hank call Duggan negotiate a price. Then let's us know.

Larry

There are pictures in the "12 Port News", sorry don't have a scanner.

Larry

And what issue is this in?(12port news) nothing in the past yr. that i have seen. Now as for that
article On the 230 @ 460 HP I have it.And that
Is when I very first talked with Mike Kirby
Many years ago. He said that little 230 was at The MAX It also ran with 3 660 holleys.
It buzzed about 8500 it had a crane cam (what crane called a Low-Jerk NO -Pop series It was a .800 lift and 284 degrees duration Part number was a R284-456-2S-8 this was at the time a PRO Stock grind.
I came across this article Back 83(it was from 1979)
Well like i said I came across it in 83 This is when I first Got the New found Hots for the Inline.
Then I started to make phone calls all over the place MIke being one of the Very first.He let me pick his brain for at least a good year Before I started to even Build my first L6 in 84.Late 83 I started out with just a Offey & headers then stepped up to a Rv style cam. What a big difference even the first two things had made.
But anyway Longer story made short Yes that had will made 2hp Per cubic inch. The underside/combustion chamber Is Not Inline like the stock head is This looks more Kinda twisted /wave They are tilted. I have even seen these heads first hand and Close up.I tried so Hard to get the first guys Head that I ever seen But NOPE he wasn't about to give it up at No Price
even though he wasn't racing any more Bummer me
to this day I'd love to have one BUT thats just not in my pocket to buy Or Mikes.
But my bottom LINE is I have Him (Mike Kirby & a Very good friend/Member here in Fla to Thank for getting me into The Inline More then 20 years ago)

Ps I had called crane back then and that cam would have cost me about 400 bucks back then.

Twisted6, It's the latest issue of 12 Port, I got it yesterday.

Your right the valves are staggered. It's not a cross flow head. The top end sounds bullet proof, shafts and rockers. Comes with special hardened pushrod ends, rocker cover, exhaust plate & gaskets,and the intake manifold as mentioned previously. It also includes the head bolts, the 351 Ford bolts.

There will be some configuration problems to work with. For best combustion you need to run flat top pistons. The intake and exhaust ports are on the opposite side of the head, the sparkplugs are on the drivers side. Since the intake ports are canted (looks to be 45%) you will have to watch your overhead clearance. The header will have to clear the distributor, oil dip stick, and starter. If your running a coil in cap HEI might want to go external coil for additional room. Even still considering the potential of this head well worth the effort. I can see myself introducing bent things to the wonders of an old straight six.

Larry

why in the world did they put the intake& exhaust over Now to the Passenger side Over the dist. That doesn't make any sense to me. The head i am was talking about everything was still the same as Stock (driver side).I'll have to try and scan the photo of the Head and Intake. But it is only the combustion side. But everything still mounted on the driver side. But it was 12 ports not shared.And from the top of the carb to the Head face Over all was a total of 16 inch for the intake system.
Secondly HOW did they get around the PUSH RODS??
I don't see anyway That it Could be done.
The push rods & all would be in the way.
Ok so your talking about Jul/Aug. issue

BigBill,
Thanks for the idea, below iw what I Emailed to the TrickFlow Emails you listed.

Twisted6, it is so great you know Mike Kirby - pioneers like Mike are what makes our hobby grow. And even a very pricey max effort 12-port head is in the budget for some, worth it if you gotta win the race. But, for most of us, the market will be driven by the v-8 price range, hence my hint to Trick Flow. Maybe they can hire Mike K to consult for them or make it his signature cylinder head or something, I dont know - I just think it would be great for the Chev. 6.

Remember when all the aluminum v-8 heads came out? First smallblock Chev, then all the others, then competition for price & flow, etc. This could happen for the inline 6!


****************************************

Dear Trick Flow,
I am writing to express my interest in a cylinder head for the Chevy 6 - see post below, I was excited to hear about your pontential interest in doing this.
I will soon either be sinking money into a couple of my old 1962-era heads (siamese intake port, 60s-era combustion chamber, tired/worn iron) or getting something new.
If the price for the single 6 head was in the range of a pair of v-8 heads, I think there would be a huge interest. Why? The era for just "hot rodding" these cars (ie 350 Chevy) is changing to one of taking them back to original - meaning the "6" for many. So why a new cylinder head? Well, just like the old Flathead Fords, even if one runs twin pipes (dual carbs) and alum finned heads, it's still a flathead - the right motor.

Perhaps you could consider two designs:
* First, just an update of the stock head, so the stock manifolds, valve cover etc would bolt up - but a modern combustion chamber (56cc maybe?), about 1.88 x 1.60 valves or so, perhaps individual intake ports but mated to the original "Siamese" intake manifold (or to any new individual-port intakes which would surely follow....) and better short turn radii on both ports. I'd buy one in an millisecond instead of fooling with my old underdesigned iron!
* Then of course there's the 12-port head idea - cut & paste two 350 v-8 heads (same bore spacing) or other. It's been done for racing / specialty cars, but never for the growing mass-interest in the inline.

I have written one of those "computer dyno" programs, it is well tested against hundreds of dyno tests. I tried such a cylinder head (flow & combustion chamber like your modern V8 chev heads) on a built-up 292 Chev 6, mild cam, 4v, 9.0 compression. The modern cylinder head added almost 60 hp and 60 ft-lb and made 300hp on a very mild street build - same as a 283 or 289 v-8 would make! On a Dollars-Per-Horsepower basis that a lot of us use now, this would be a "BUY".

One other thing I just have to add my2cents in on Is I have a funny feeling That if the head for what ever OR How ever it was flipped as far as the intake and exhaust goes.Then I will have to say Yeah maybe Duggan did come up with a New head design.BUT Knowing that Mike Kirby did send a Head off That way for some Flow work Testing.So I can't But ONLY Wounder If This Head Doesn't have the Fliped Intake&exhaust System IF IT WASN'T Copied??????????? And yes This IS Something I Will look into!!

Twisted6, Yes the July/August issue of "The 12 Port News".

OK, Head configuration. I was oing by what I read primarily. There are three photos of the head, and all the photos are a little (maybe more than a little) dark. On looking at the photos closer using a magnifying glass. The first photos shows the port side and rocker assembly, you clearly see the water inlet. The last photo shows the assemled head, with carbs, and rocker cover, again with water inlet in front. The carbs are definitely to the left of the water inlet. The second photo shows the bottom of the head, staggered valves, combustion chambers and of course the holes for the head bolts, pushrods, and water. Looking at the edge of the casting it clearly looks like it's sitting on the bosses for the ports. The casting edge, two water holes, and the distance from edge of casting to head bolts puts the water inlet on the left. The pushrod holes, and sparkplug holes are on top, BIG PROBLEM, unless the water inlet is in the back. The article states that the sparkplug are on the drivers side, the other photos seem to confirm. The article also says that Duggan has gone through more than a few design phases. Do we have photo that doesn't belong? I'll try and get a hold of Mr. Hall and find out.

Larry

You know what they say about some things being to good to be true.

I couldn't find Herert Hall in the roster. I looked to see if there was any info in the title. Oops then I see "Reprinted from "The 12 Port News" Vol V issue 2 and Vol V issue 4, Boy do I feel like a Horses @ss.

So what happened to these heads? They look like an awsome head. At $1600 even 15 years ago,that would have been a deal.

Larry

the market just was not there. to manufacter something like that you need orders. do you think he would have sold more then 2,000 heads in the us in one year?

go the the 4 cyl site there is a guy in ohio making the riley ov head for the a & b fords. price. $2,899 he gets them cast once a year you have to be on the list and have a $1500 depost. to get one. and you think some one is going to make a 6 head for less?

don't get me wrong i would like to be able to buy a good head. even an iron one

well when I get my Issue i will look at it very closely. But the photo could???? have been copied backwards and this would make somethings loook very funny toooooooo minds eye LOL I have a copy from 1779 showing that head and it would be easy to make it look as if it is all on the passenger side. and still have the water intake port look right with in reason..

But no reall harm done. but i'm sure you just Teased alot of people lol.

I tried a web search on duggan engineering - came back nearly blank. Any idea if they have an email address?

If you guys read what Larry said. THIS is a Very and I do Mean Very OLD REPRINT. FROM 1985 so i
DOUT those numbers would even be any good.
AND VERY Sure Those Prices wouldn't be any good EITHER.