Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance 292 Rebuild vs 4200 swap - cost comparison and thoughts

Thought I'd pass along some costs of rebuilding my 292 and the cost of buying and installing the 4200.

It rambles a bit.....

292 core 150
venoila turbo pistons 800
xray rods 300
rebuild rods 300
intake headers carb 800
rings bearings gaskets 400
block work 2100 (yep its expensive here)
head work including installing the lump ports 1500
crank turn polish 200
comp cam 200
All said and done it was just over 7000 to build a 220hp turbo ready 292 locally.


Last week I bought a 2006 vortec 4200 off of ebay to
build over the winter for 900 plus shipping 210 - its a complete running engine. The 2006 engine is 290HP.
Installation cost for the '02 vortec currently in the truck:


Tranmission core - 120
bellhousing 200 from GM
mounts - 100 material + 12 hours to fabricate
Transmission build - (mind you this is in preparation for the turbo 4200 so its built to take 600HP) 2300
megasquirt + harness 400
hoses + rad modification 400
oil pan mod's + EDIS bracket + trigger wheel I
don't own a mill so I had to buck up for the job 800
Exhaust system - 100
Time to install about 90 hours including all the fab.


So for 3530 assuming a stock rebuild for the 4l60e
this is cost to buy and install a vortec 4200 - call it 3700 all said and done - roughly 1/2 price of building a turbo ready 292.

So for the 292 $$ per HP == $31.8/hp
for the vortec == 12.75 << much better cost wise.

Sure a stock rebuild on the 292 would have been about 3500 parts and labour - with maybe a 190 HP result still this is $18.40/hp...

To prep the vortec for turbo usage its going to be about 3500 for the short block but I'm starting with a 290HP vs 220HP and it will take a lot less boost to get to end power level with the vortec. The DOHC head alone is worth the hassles of building a stout short block. All said and done its most likely going to cost neutral to build the vortec for boost compared to the 292.... Wish I had gone direct to the 4200...

Just my $0.02 if anyone is considering a rebuild - a low mileage vortec is a better way to go. The downside is you lose orginallity - so keep the stock engine for reinstallation before you sell the vehicle.

The 4200 gets about double the fuel mileage of the 292.

Thank you for taking the time to post all of that. Definitely an eye opener.

The other item is that the 4200 is current produciton - easy to get parts for. And most likely it will outlive the rest of the vehicle. I read somewhere GM ran a number of these engines wide open for like 100,000 miles and they were as good as new, so they reduced the number to like 3-4 and ran them until they got kicked out of the dyno cell at 300,000 miles. Yikes!

http://media.gm.com/division/powertrain/news/4200_Overview.pdf

wow.... to completely machine a engine block here is 500.00, and a head machineing is 200.00, balance is 150.00, shot blast block & head is 79.00. glad i dont live where you live.

Since you chimed in now,I thought that was a tactic to get guys to put in the newer 4.2 Trailblazer engine.
I thought the price is way too high also.
Also, I do not see forged pistons for the price list for the 4.2,,,I think not really a good comparision.
As far as building a 4l60E,don't waste your time with that,I would install a 4L80E trans,much more durable.
Also,I would think if you fuel injected a 292 you should get better gas mileage,@ least 15 MPG? I know the 4.2 does not get 30 MPG which is double .
Plus I would not run a turbo on the 4.2 unless it has forged pistons.

Basically most of those prices are way too high ,some are double the price of the norm & even more epscially the block!!! WOW!!!!
What in detail did they do to your block??

Guess that's enough for now,had to vent a little.:-)
Two cents thrown.
MBHD

Hey, Hank, what controller would you use on the 4L80E (if you used it on the 292)? I expect you would use the OE computer on the 4.2, unless you went standalone EFI.

We should bear in mind that this comparison between preparing a salvage 4200 and rebuilding a 292 is expressed in Canadian dollars. As of this morning, the Canadian dollar is almost equal to the weakened US dollar, but that is a recent development. Until recently, the Canadian dollar was floating between 65 and 75 cents US. That should give us some perspective on these prices. Our Canadian Inliners who have been rebuilding engines for a while may have more to say.

We should also recognize that the 4200 is not built to be rebuilt; it is clearly intended to be a disposable module. "Forged pistons" and other "hot rod" modifications are going to be much more complicated and expensive. Modifying the computer chips and programming will require specialized knowledge that is not, exactly, "mechanical." We may applaud those brave enough to take on these engines, and we may admire the broad outlines of their design--but "souping them up" will require new skills and knowledge . . . and a lot more money, of whatever currency.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Gentlemen;

A "good running" used engine has/is always a better deal (money wise) than rebuilding one. A lot of time is saved and there's less chances for error also.

I guess; It's all in what you want in the final product.

Happy trails.

PS: In time these will become more available in 'wrecking yards' and perhaps speed parts too.

There are several companies that make them.
I am sorta in the process of shopping for one.
No preference as of yet.
TCI,Bowtie overdrive sells,,,I forgot what brand??
Even GM sells a stand alone controller.
There are others,just use a search engine(like Google) & type in 4L80E controller.
Should be able to see a few.
If you are just going to a normally aspirated 292 a 4L60E will be fine.
I just really do not like the large gear gaps/spacing,especially between 1st & second gear.

MBHD

To complete the discussion listed below are the cost of the parts that I'm planning on using to build a stout bottom end for the vortec.

All prices in US$

J&E pistons 120.56 + 26 for thermal barrier

Crower rods $1158 for 6

Darton sleeves $737

Bearing and rings will add $300.

I'm getting quotes for machining the dry bore walls for the darton sleeves this week and will post.

The head work is limited to changing the valves to inconel, doing a bit of porting on the exhaust side and installing heavier springs. I don't plan on a valve job unless needed as the head is low mileage. Just a quick hand lap and done.

Don,

Come to B'ville next year.. we'll have the opel ready with the vortec by then. I agree that the newer engine need some new skill - e.g. wiring, electrical diagnostics, and computer skills. However the tuning part is the same as is has been for 100 years - give the motor the fuel that it wants and the right amount of spark advance and you make power. What changed is how that gets done. Once an efi system is installed, tuning it is no more difficult than changing jets - instead of turning a screw driver - you tap keys on the keyboard.


For the cost comparison with equal shortblock parts and machine work the head on the vortec is worth the extra hassle of ordering custom parts. It needs so little head prep it hurts when compared to installing lump ports in the 292 - I know what it took to get the 292 done.

I agree that the 4200 is not for everyone here, however, I would be doing the inliners a dis-service if I was not being upfront and lettign folks know whats is possible with this good engine. I'm not sure that I agree with you that the vortec is not rebuildable - its just different. Got a worn hole - change the factory sleeve and piston.

The aftermarket is a tough place to launch a new series of parts, without the demand no one will invest in the NRE (non-reccuring expense) of designing parts. Without parts not many want to use the motor.

Anyway I'd appreciate feedback it folks want me to keep on posting on progress or just let the subject it go.

Marc

Just curious why you are only porting the exhaust side?
I would say,you will make more power by porting the intake port over the exhaust.

I would love to install the 4200 into my 69 Camaro,but I am stuck for now w/my 250.I like the nastalga engine that it came with.
I would also like to see that engine installed in the Chevy Colorado or GMC equivilent
MBHD

i have seen those sleeves installed at the factory--by a computer-controlled machine doing things that no human being can quite do. On the the assembly line the sleeves are frozen at many degrees below zero Fahrenheit, and are smoking as they are tapped in by the computer. When the computer senses that a sleeve is not fitting correctly, the assembly line stops, and a human being--one of the few left on that line--takes the block away, to be melted down and recast.

i applaud your efforts with this engine. If you wanted to go into business designing parts and/or building engines, you might do well. You are meeting some of the challenges that twenty-first century racers will face in modifying twenty-first century engines. i do not doubt that there are many more challenges to come, and all of us who want to work with these engines will have much to learn.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

efi-diy,

how much does a ported 4.2 cylinder head flow?
Most good aftermarket SBC heads flow over 300 CFM nowadays.
And 15% heads flow in the 360 CFM range,ported of course.
The Corvette LS6 heads flows like 360-380 CFM range stock,but they are CNC ported from the factory.A lot of R&D.

My 12 port head flows close to 320 CFM, but I am not done with it yet, & I have just the little above the street porting.

MBHD

Hank, yeah, I have heard of, seen most of those trans controllers, I was just wondering if you had a preference and why. Thanks anyhow.

Marc, I for one would like to see more posts on your setup as it evolves. Keep up the good work.

Ordered my high flow injectors from sprayitracing.com 72#/hr << good for upto 130 HP/cylinder gee wait a minute that more than the factory hp rating for the orginal engine in the truck... if gas keeps going up maybe we can loop 5 clyinder off and still get around...

Also ordered my crower rods today as they are the longest lead time item 8-10 weeks..

My 2 cents worth. Having put 1000 miles on my Austin Healey/Trailblazer swap this summer. ( I know, it's not a truck!) The 4200 does not have a torque curve. It looks like a drawing of your kitchen table. With the variable exhaust cam it always has torque. I have a six speed (double overdrive) trans. I only need a three speed. Highway mileage is between 30-32 mpg. If you really think you need more power, why not a Rotex blower, small and efficient. These engines get 290 hp stock. Split the manifold, throw away the airbox and put a good filter on and reprogram the injection and you should have 325 hp and all the torque in the world whenever. Lyndon Wester at Wester's garage reprogramed my stock CPU for me. I spent $850 on a 2004 18,000 mile motor. $600 on the CPU,$300 on a flywheel, any chevy clutch will do, $50 bucks on misc pieces of steel plate for the trans adapter ( I didn't use the Colorado pcs, that trans was geared too low for me) and motor mounts, I milled some new alt and idler pulley brackets for a new belt drive and that was pretty much it. Oh yeah the engine I replaced was about a $4000 built up 250 chev.

Trout

Good to hear from you on this subject...

I hear of others that have swaps in progress. Last year when we contacted Crower to get cams ground for the 4200 they said not inteeseted - this year they at least price the job and said they would do them - so maybe slowly the aftermarket will start getting parts ready.

Hey Trout, You're using the factory drive-by-wire, correct?

How is the stock manifold constructed? Is it a 1-piece or two piece design? I'm interested in reconfiguring the intake so that it doesn't cross over the valve cover. The idea being that it would provide for a lower hood-line and a more "classic" look. I imagine that would change the tuning somewhat however, as you'd loose those long, torque-inducing intake runners. Although you could add some top-end potentially if you made a log-style intake. So I guess that my questions are:

-Can the stock intake be modified to a log-style without the crossover, or will it require an entirely new fabrication?

-If you're going to extensively modify the engine, megasquirt makes total sense, but if the intake change is all I do, does it make more sense to have someone reprogram the stock ecu?

-Are there any of the custom flywheels left for converting the motor to a manual? And if so, could someone refresh me on the contact person.

What I'd like to put it in:

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2562

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2583

How is the stock manifold constructed?

Its one piece plastic made from a top/bottom that is plastic welded together - it doesn't come apart.

If the replacement manifold was the same volume/runner length as stock then the stock tune up should be close enough.

Kreb Cool car. Yes factory driveby wire. I haven't tried cutting up the manifold but hey I built a lot of plastic models as a kid and that was before pc-7 and all these othe epoxys. Your right about the manifold height. I took the MAP sensor off the to of mine and then I made a spigot that bolted on in place of the throttle body and used 4" radiator hose to move the throttle body across the motor to the exhaust side and turned the throttle body upside down and mounted it there. I don't think it hurt the throttle response but then I never ran it in stock form. Check with Jerry Weigt for flywheels. I don't think megasquirt or anybody but the factory can handle the variable exhaust cam? Thats one of the reasons the torque curve is so flat.

Trout

Right now - correct - next season this is on my hit list to address.