Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Ebay internet find lump ports.

Quote from Randy S. Hager
Hey, I know I'm not an OFFICIAL II memeber, just the BB but I'm staying away from this board because it seems all I see is MBHD do nothing but bash others efforts, except his frends. I really don't know what he has against Tom but I've got the idea that He hates Tom for selling the Lump Ports like Larry's. Yea, I know Hank,......didn't need anymore people here anyways.....RIGHT! (If it means anything...I have LARRY's lumps and Tom doesn't hate me he helps me)

BTW.....wonder how many really do join the II after a few weeks, month, years on this BB?????

Randy,
Thanks for the nod, I try to help anyone that wants it. Working on these inline engines is just something I enjoy doing. Some guy's go to the bar each night, I go to the shop. It's alot closer to home. Had my daughter out with me making Lumps last night. She likes running the mill and is getting comfortable doing it. The boy is helping me work on the farm buggy and is starting to get excited. Know I would at his age.
Sorry we could not meet up in Texas this summer. There will be another time.

Quote by JimW
CNC is describing me as one of the many that have been helped on this forum. 'Most bang for the buck', simple and reliable describe my build.

I have less than $1350 in my engine and I have a setup that'll spin the tires in a couple of gears, won't give up on any hill at 65+ mph and I'm getting just under 17 mpg in a 4600 lb truck. That's pretty respectable for the money spent, I think, considering the starting point. As far as reliability, I have over 11k miles on it with one break down (broke a rocker), and if I would've known what I was looking at when I installed the rockers, then I would of known that I needed new ones.

Of the money I spent I have $400 in the head consisting of valves, lumps and machine work. I'm sure that Larry and others can make a 194 head run and flow like like the wind, but I believe that the machine shop bill alone would be more than my total head expenditure, and maybe more than double. Let's remember that we're not preaching to the choir, but rather that we're trying to build and help the congregation ('the average Joe'.)

JimW,
I did those dyno tests just to be able to help guys like you, me and countless others. Most guy's simply want the most bang for the buck, proven formulas. There are not enough people working on these engines anymore and so much knowledge has been lost. Machine shops will look at you cross eyed when you bring in a inline project. Most of the kids working in those shops have never touched a inline project. I am glad your truck turned out so good. It has made a very dependable cruiser for you. If I remember correct, you and your sons project too.

Hank,
Maybe you have had good experiences with a 194 head. Great. I ran one on my N/A 292 for many years. It had a Clifford 270 cam and 1.94/ 1.6 valves and porting. It ran good, had a lumpy idle and only put down a 16.9 in the 1/4. Always thought something was holding it back. Now I know the flow was not as good as it should have been. After doing these dyno tests, testing all those cams, heads, intakes combos. Would I run a 194 head, NOPE.

Is it a option, yes. It can gain you easy compression and may be really good to use on a low rpm engine. But ussually low rpm engines are working hard at a low rpm and will suffer from detonation easier if the compression is turned up. The 194 headt will limit the flow on intake and exh valve. The only way around this is the open up the combustion chamber. It is hard to get a shop to install Lumps/ oversize valves/ port inline heads economically. Who is going to do chamber work economically?

That is why I keep saying the open chamber head is the best head to start with. Most guy's build street engines.

I was also at the track when MRHotRod 6 (Mike Bareli) blew his engine at the Iowa convention in 2008. It was a bad deal. Helped pull the engine down to review the damage. That engine had a Open chamber head.

If it not a open chamber, then it is one heavily modified 194 head. Well it is certainly opened up in this pic.

Tom

This is the chain lube thread of inliners.

Rick...that might have went over the head of some of the folks here...my self, I use to make up my own chain lube. "O"ring chains settled that conflect. Jerry

HEY TOM
I have a NEWS FLASH for you, You DIDN'T have clue what you were looking at and here are the head casting numbers
K2162 =1962 3824435 SMALL CHAMBER HEAD. And this head is still good enough to be USED as a nice test bed As WE already knew what the head flowed with the OLD STYLE lump port.
So and YES we still have and It's not a Open/Big Chamber head.
And If you think I'm BS with the casting numbers I have Photos as well. And the Head is still Blue Just like you seen it.

Call me ignorant, but HUH.....?

And by the way, who's Dan Bunch?

Chain lube aka spirited discusion aka ego vs ego. What started out as a question about the viability of the 194 head vs the open chamber head for a budget street build it's gone all over the place because of personal feelings. I entered into it by wanting to see data from all sides that could be used to reach an educated decision on my own build for another street engine. Dan Who??

Randy, Good to see you, don't be discouraged. We all have to run for cover when the "Dive Bomber" makes a pass. He mostly shoots blanks. Beater

Well I wouldn't heavily,But yes it has been slightly reworked. But hey what can i say I don't have a clue.Right lol

Now will someone please give me some substantieated figures that will help me compare the 194 head to the open chamber head for street use. No blanks please.

Yep, Still have that head. Can get pics of it. Got a few other 194 heads to be worked up.

Also willing to do another post if that will help.
Going to do your car too?

There were a few more questions from my previous post/s & requests.

Selective answers?

Why would you work up the 194 heads,you would advise against anyone using it,correct?

Another post would be great on your turbo build,we can all learn a lot, really.
Pics would be great of the 194 head you used.

Can't work on car,no $$$ & no time. Times are tough.

MBHD

Selective answers???

Sorta like selective hearing.

Yes, I asked more than one question & only had one answered.

MBHD

Example: I ask you what are the specs on your tubo, what size engine do you have? Are you going to drive it on the street.
What octane fuel do you use?

Are you using one injector per port?
Your reply,
I have a 250 ci engine.
Jalopy45

"Out of the blue of the northern sky......" Funny how guys who insist that others document every thing they post expect their own memories be accepted as gospel. Makes me glad I've never done anything requiring proof or worth remembering. Beater

You have a very,very dry humor.
Most people would consider deadpan humor to be rude.
But the thing is we do understand you & no ,you are not funny.
Don't you have another forum to disrupt?

Just talking to myself,dont mind me.

MBHD

Selective answers???

I looked over some automotive machinist refernce books and if they are correct(and at $65 a volume I will assume they are) to raise the compression on a head, a cut of 0.010 will raise the compression from between .141:1 to .200:1 depending on the the swept volume of the compression chamber so if an unmolested 194 head will raise the compression .500:1 it would take a minimum of an additional 0.075 cut to reach a 2 point increase in compression.

Automotive technology: a systems approach, Volume 2 By Jack Erjavec

......after following this post, I'm glade I race a Buick 8...

Just did some quick calcs, guessing at a few things but to give an idea:

250cid+30-over
58cc head
.040 gasket
.000 deck
flattop piston (0cc dish)
11.59CR

The 70cc head would give
9.97CR
(Gain of 1.6 CR with the small head - at this level!)

Back to the small head, 58cc
11.59CR
Mill head .020
Guess that the gain is about 2/3 of that by milling the block, since milling the quench area takes away no volume
12.03CR

So if you started with the above, my guess is you'd have to mill the head .020" to get 12.03CR.

Now, my small head is 59.4cc bone stock as I last measured it, and chamber work will normally make it bigger. So, you might end up having to mill .040" or so to really get 12.0cr.

Even on my stock spare 250 -
Compression with my stock large head
72.5cc measured
8.15CR (a real snoozer)

With my stock small head
59.4cc measured
9.29CR
Gain of 1.14 CR.

So the small head gains 1.1 to 1.6 CR on things we would typically build. Does it also gain torq/power? That I suppose is the topic of this very enthusiastic (even fun?) thread. Hey, at least people care!

It all depends on who you talk to.

If you talk to Tom,no gain, but he stated he has 194 heads to get worked on,why even work on those heads if they are no good?


MBHD

Hank, sit down and have a beer ,no one said the 194 head was no good. What was said was the 194 head will require more work to use on the street than an open chamber head. The dyno pulls showed that with and without lump ports the open chamber head is a better choice using the parts (cams, intakes,etc.) that are commonly found on street engines. If you like your head good, use it, no one is aking you to get rid of it, I'm not going to use one because I've yet to see anything to back up any claims that the 194 works better.

Hank, in case you think this is an attack against you, it is not, I understand passion for causes, Frenchtown Flyer has it for Fords (shudder) EFI-DIY is stuck on the 4200 and I'm certain we have someone that feels a Buick straight 8 is Nirvana. Different strokes for different folks.

I can amuse myself quite well here thank you. No color no caps. Beater

I can see you are just learning internet etiquette.
Seeing different color words must have amazed you I guess.

That's Ok sooner or later you should be able to control your temper,remember to count to ten.

Pretty new to the language too. What's a 10?

Don't need to state the obvious,we know.

Jalopy45,

I believe Tlowe has always said, he would never recomend using a 194 cyl head period,this is probably because he has not had any luck w/one to flow good.Maybe someday he will & maybe then change his mind,I really dont care if he does or does not, that's fine.
The 194 cyl head does not need to be a fully reworked cylinder head to work good. It takes a little work,but like I said, I used smaller intake valves & made the chambers pretty small for max compression. You would be foolish, or just plain, have no clue to install a 1.94" intake valve in the small chamber cyl head & not do any chamber work.

It seems like Tlowes original 194 head had 1.94" intakes valves & no chamber work done.There was something holding back his 292.
It was the 194 head? who knows, he did not install a large chamber head to compare on a vehicle that actually runs on the street.But like I said,if it had 1.94" intake valves,that would be holding it back tremendously w/no chamber work.
BTW,still awaiting for those pics.I do not need pics, I know what it looks like as I tried different size valves in 194 heads over 20 years ago.
Pics would be for peeps here to see it first hand.

You are only considering his dyno tests to be the only possible source for cyl head info,do you think Larry is lieing about using a 194 cyl head on Mikes Camaro? Is Mikes record setting runs using the 194 head all lies? He has his time slips,probably has video also,w/larger chamber head runs & when changed to the small chamber head? Who knows,maybe twisted 6 can post some vids?If you had talked w/Mike Kirby & he told you the 194 head would be a good choice for a certain application,would you think he would be lieing to you, you would have a hard time believing that, correct.
Do you think he would work a 194 head ,sell it to you, knowing full well the 194 head is just plain no good?

Of course you think I am lying because I did not video tape my illegal street racing using a 194 cyl head.. I am a little smarter than doing that.

Anyways,, why would anyone want to lie about or give bogus info & want anyone to use a small chamber 194 head if infact it's not a viable option to use,it serves no purpose to this inliner forum to lie, do you think I want to be known as a lier,exaggerater.
Info I go from is mainly my own personall experience,if I do not know something , I will say, I don't know, or refer you to someone that will probably know.

I want every inline 6 to spank some V-thingy butts.

BTW, wheres my beer?

I do not take it personal as an attack torwards me @ all,but when some say comments about me(making up lies) for no reason,then I get defensive,guess I need to drink beer while I type?

If someone states my car runs 14 seconds in the 1/4 mile(& lets say it does), that is not an attack, just stateing the truth/facts.
If I post on you tube videos of my car running bad & is slow,& someone says my car looks slow,,,well that's because it is slow,can't complain about that.
There is a difference if someone is lieing about someone else & no facts involved & just plain putting them down, but if you state facts here about someone else,people say it is an attack.


Sorry , but sometimes the truth hurts.
If someone says my car does not run & it looks like pile of crap,should I get mad about it because they are stating the truth?Here is the pile.

I do not think so.
About using caps ,you should know what that means,how long have you been on the internet,& you are just learning this now??the colors to use,I guess you dont like it ,too bad.Mr. Hothead
MBHD

But your personal attacks on others should be tolerated because????? If someone responds in like kind they have anger management issues? If they use their keyboard in a manor unlike your own they are forum illiterate? When you and Al Gore were inventing the internet one of you should have published a took on internet etiquette. By now you could have been on a parr with Emily Post.

If this banter wasn't scattered all thruout the day, I would tend to blame it on beer-thirty, or the 'Cheers' syndrome. You all need to give it a rest, or take a time-out. While it can be entertaining, the same old saw tends to wear on people, and I can't have all this fun because I am supposed to be the 'adult supervision'.

Tim

No worky

No harm,try it again.
MBHD

Gentleman I drive a 41 plymouth 2 dr sedan it has a 250 chevy six with a 700 R 4 tied to a 9" ford with 3.50 gears. The engine has a open chamber head with 1.94/1.60 stanless pro flow valves and the head bolt boss is shaved to a point and and thined plus ports arre polished with some bowl work. The cam is a complete kit from Comp cams every thing from the gear on the crank to the rocker arm nuts, 260 H grind. The block is bored .030 over and decked around .018 (trusting memory but I'm close) 307 pistons ARP rod bolts in rebuilt stock rods. The cyl head was cut about .020 to clean it up. I run a complete MSD ign (distributor,coil and 6A box). I run a Q-jet setup for a V6 GM engine (85 Astro). Exhaust is a 292 manifold with the three bolt 2 1/2" out back to muffler which has two 2 1/4" outlets then piped out rear to edge of back bumper.
Everyone talks about what works well on the street and what doesn't. I tow my T roadster behind my Plymouth with no problems, we tow at legal highway speeds. If you doubt this talk to people who was at Iowa in 2008, or in North Carolina at the NTBA nationals in 2009. I live in Ohio. I think this gives an example of what can be done with an inline six. By the way the car is air conditioned and we use it all the time.
This is a no BS example of actual street use not what someone thinks. By the way it requires 89 octane fuel in flat country and likes 92 in the mountains.
Foot note don't bad mouth big block Ford sixes I put one in my roadster and it is amazing the performace to dollar ratio.

Big Bill, That sounds like a great ride with a carefully built engine and dive train. What is the rear tire size and what RPMs are you turning at highway speeds in OD? Do you have any pictures of the head bolt boss treatment? Are you towing the "T" to the races? Beater

big bill I.I.
sounds like a good combo.
Question,the 260 H cam, what compression do they recommend & what is your compression ratio?

Don't know why anyone would bad mouth a Ford 300, cyl head is way better than ours.

Thanks

MBHD

I was at IOWA 2008- GREAT RIDE!!!! 1 OL REDNDCK

Tires are 215 x 75 15s on 7" rims in back 6"rims in front.
I don't have pictures of the head work but we cut the boss to a point on the manifold side and rounded the valve side to help prevent a dead air pocket as the air passed the bolt boss. It is very thin on the sides of the boss, I worried about cracks at first but 8 years later and a lot of miles it is still running fine. Hank I don't have the cam card in front of me but it is still available on line from comp cams.

I run a similar spec'd engine in my Nova wagon except for the cam and carb, I used a 268H and kit and a 500 cfm Edelbrock carb all run thru a Saginaw 4 speed. I makes for a peppy little street engine and can still get decent mileage and pull a trailer to the swap meets.

Jalopy 45
I had an Edelbrock on mine and it ran just a little rich, tried changing jets and rods made it better but not right. Then a friend of mine that runs a carb shop suggested my most hated carb a Q-jet. I said no way there junk. He said bolt this one on and try it for six months and if you don't like it bring it back if you do bring me $150.00. So I said OK, bolted it on drove it local a couple weeks then drove it to the NSRA nationals in Louisville and back, then took him the 150 and quit bad mouthing the Q-jets. What he explained was the Q-jet was designed to correct the problems that the AFB had and the biggest problem is most people don't have them adjusted right. Both my power and mileage increased.

And, so much for "calculating the CFM"...