Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines P-51 inline engine

Gentlemen;

A 'Hollywood celeb' the other day stated he flew his P-51 Mustang at 40,000 feet.

Ah; @ 20,000 feet there's barely enough oxygen to breath (humans), right.

So; Assuming he had breathing equipment installed for this, would the engine still run that high (at that altitude)????

BTW: The Merlin & Rolls Royce engines are considered inlines.

John M.....

Well, yes, they are inlines in the aircraft world, but only because the other big engines were shaped like corncobs. They are V-12's, absolutely awesome engines as are the Griffen bomber engines. 30,000 feet was quite common with power to spare, so 40 was probably doable. OK, just looked it up. How does 41,900 feet sound for a service ceiling! They were compound supercharged, with one feeding into the other. I'll be crewing the #10 formula plane "El Bandito" in Reno late this summer. The owner/pilot flew P-51's and I'll be sure to ask more about them. Check this out http://www.aviation-history.com/north-american/p51.html Armond

Hey John,

Don't Rolls Royce / Merlin engines cost, like a hundred thousand dollars+ these days ? ! . . . . . . Hardly practical for the "average" inline enthusiast !

Touche . . . . . ;c) LOL

'Crockett

Merlins never had roller rockers,a problem with cam and follower wear,a set of custon roller rockers can cost 30,000 bucks,ouch.
Many piston engines had compound supercharging to deal with high altitudes.In reality,high flying brought on lots of problems with ignition and detonation.
Generally,in a compound supercharger setup,a mechanical or turbo blower supplied air at sea level pressure to the secondary blower reguardless of altitude.the secondary blower then boosted that air to whatever pressure was necessary for the power level required.Intake pressures of 100 HG were common late in WW2.The blowers consumed upwards od 300 HP from the engine(s).High altitude rated Merlins had around 1200 HP available at the prop at 30,000 feet.
Room in aircraft was tight,the size of after coolers to keep incoming air at reasonable temperatures was limited,making water- alcohol injection a requirement on some.Boost controls were crude,reguired judgement on the pilot in many cases.Piston failure by detonation was not uncommon, not the best thing when you're flying over hostile territory.

Sorry, John, You're slightly misinformed; the P-51 engines were NOT inline. Both the original 1,150 hp V-1710-81 Allison and the subsequent Packard-built, Roll-Royce licensed engines (1,520 thru 1,740 hp) were VEE-12s!

A friend of mine had an allison V-12 that was mounted on a trailer, all detailed up nice-n-pretty, ready to run. It had zoomie headers (24 pipes straight up like a tractor puller!) and FOUR Holley four barrels for carburetion. He would tow it to car shows and cruise nights behind his rod. Man when he fired that thing up it was ear splitting. Sold it to Al Little of "Big Al" drag racing fame a few years ago so now it is on the left coast. Selling price was in the five figure range. Cheap.

Merlins, Allison, Griffins, Junkers, and Daimler-Benz.... V-12's are all considered Inline engines in the aircraft world. The other type is the radial, (the round ones), Pratt & Whitney, Wright, BMW....

If you want a cheap Merlin, look for a Rolls Royce Meteor tank engine. Mostly the same engine, but derated for tank use. And cheap cause it's not certified for aviation use.

WOW.

Thanks for the education. I thought 20,000 was about tops for WWII fighters etc.

I knew the early bombers B-17s & 25s flew 'way up there' from being a "Twelve O'Clock High" fan & 'war baby'.

I guess the B-29s would fly even higher later on in the war.

JM.....

Re: P-51 / Merlin,

Lotsa interesting pix & stuff here:

http://www.p51.wjackparker.com

Including engine manual illustrations

The crankshaft looks alot like a L6 chevy !

Check out the way the rods mesh together and use a common rod bearing. Pretty interesting stuff . . .thanks for bringing it up John. I'm always looking for something "engine" related to do a search on !

'Crockett

B-17's had a typical service altitude limit of around 31,000 feet,same for the B-29, but the 29 was pressurized,carried more payload and was quite a bit faster.
If ya talk to the men who flew the planes,the facts listed are often meaningless,the plane's speed and altitude depended on engine condition,weather and payload.Top speed of piston engine fighter planes might vary as much as 35 MPH due to dents in the sheet metal,or the pilot's ability to get the most from the engine.The fastest WW2 fighter was the last models of the P-47,powered by a 2800 cubic inch Pratt and Whitney 18 cylinder radial,2800-3000 hp with water injection,495 MPH in level flight. The pilot,besides the throttle,he had to control prop speed,carb mixture,control surface trim and on some ,supercharger boost,all while trying to avoid being shot up.These men relied on crude flight instruments,and how the plane felt in flight,still they could pull over 5 g's in diving turns.

WOW again!

I thought the P-38 'Lightning' was the fastest WWII plane with It's twin engines. It sure shot the hell out of the Japs in 1944.

I'll bet Tom Cruise's P-51 has all the "bells & whistles" in navigation equipment too.

Anybody got P-38 pics??

JM...

rebuildable allisons can be had for under $10,000 on e-bay. And like mentioned above, tanks used a detuned version of the aircraft engines, only around 500 HP, but 1200 FT/LB of torgue.

I read somewhere that the fork and blade connecting rods were to improve second order balance. Lots of guys still running the allison v12 in local tractor pulls. Just recently, have the bigger rolls royce engines made their appearance on the tractors.

Here are some pictures I took of the "Glacier Girl" P-38. This is the one that was taken from the ice in Greenland and restored.




Jim
P.S. I should add that these were taken this April at the Sun-n-Fun Fly in in Lakeland, FL. The P38 Flew daily.

Dear Jim;

Good pics, thanks. The color scheme is right but I think the star emblym was further back.
Can't find my 1942 book.

JM......

That record setting P-47 wasn't powered by the R-2800. It had an experimental V-16 Chrysler. The plane could actually exceed 500mph in level flight. Chrysler traces its Hemi linage back to this engine.

"P-38 'Lightning' was the fastest WWII"

No.

The fastest P-47 was a lightweight N series,about 500 were made in 1945.It was capable of 490+ MPH in level flight with full combat gear.Powered by a PW R2800 Radial.
The P-38 shot down 7000 Japanese planes,many more than any other Allied aircraft.Many of thse victories cam earlier in the Pacific war when the Japanese still had good planes and pilots.The P-38 was a large fighter,2-1/2 times the weight of the famous Japanese Zero.By manipulating the twin engines and air brake flaps, a good pilot could turn inside of the Zero to bring his guns on target.
The P-38 is the mose beautiful designed aircraft of WW2,deadly Art Deco styling

Tony;

Do you remember what the P-38 top speed was?

The German jet pictured was an expermental prototype that was never mass produced because the B-17s and 25s blew up all their factorys.

JM......

PS: The guy that designed it for Lockeed lived next door to my mother for years and had 1/4 scale model made in aluminum with tiny rivits & all. When he died I tried to get it but was "too late".

The German plane pictured above in the thread is a Me163 Komet. It was not a jet, but a rocket plane. They actually saw combat, though not in great numbers. As you can imagine, range was not its strong point. Neither was safety. It was powered by two chemicals that spontaneously combusted when mixed (no spark required). These chemicals were also extremely corrosive and claimed the lives of several pilots.

But, the Komet could do 600MPH, and climb like err.. a rocket ship!

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/pmodels/me163.html

This is way off-topic, but amazing technology for the time!
I spent way too many hours reading about WWII aircraft as a kid. The Germans had lots of far-out stuff that only made it into combat in small numbers or not at all, partly due to the 8th Air Force heavy bombers, but also due to bizarre behavior from Hitler. The Me162 jet (not the Komet) was delayed several months to a year because der Fuhrer insisted that it be fitted with a bomb rack. We still would have won the war, but at a much higher cost in the air, if the jets had been out in greater numbers.

John,the P-38 has a listed top speed from 390-425 MPH depending on the mark (model)Again,top speeds are academic.
The P-38 was the only US fighter available before WW2 that remained a competitive combat fighter till the end of the war.

It truly was the Mfg. capability of the USA that won the war for us and the world. The factorys ran 24-7 and only shut down (part time)for Christmas.

I can still remember them as a young boy and the railroads that moved everything (back & forth) across the country, 24-7 as well.

There was a postage stamp made for "rosy the riveter" in the late 90s.

This is not to forget all that died (47 million) of which the Russians lost the most 22 million where we lost 14.

I have a model (P-38)in progresss with 40" wingspan. In the paint shop now.

JM.....

The B-17's stable mate was the B-24 not the B-25

The jet that Hitler delayed was the Me-262.

Cool story about US production during the war. Seems the Gerry's had some spys reporting back from the US. Some reported back that they had been observing a Ford plant. Said that a Jeep was coming out the back doors every 30 seconds. German command berated them for making up such stories. Later the report was confirmed. Command still didn't believe it and said that Ford was just driving the Jeeps back around front, back through, and out the back doors again.

I thought that "jeeps" which was the nickname for 'general purpose vehicle' (GP), were made by Chysler/Dodge during the war.

JM...

John,

Jeeps were made by more than one company, Willys was the prime contractor. It was originally an American Bantam design IIRC. Dodge designed and built most of the 3/4 ton trucks such as ambulances and ammo carriers.

Jeeps were built by many companies as were many weapons. I own an M-1 "SPRINGFIELD" that was built by WINCHESTER and a 45 "COLT" pistol that was built by SINGER, the sewing machine company.

On behalf of a lot of old timers who don't get the recognition they deserve, I'd like to comment on the devastation dealt out by the brave men who flew B-26's over Europe.

Unlike the the high altitude missions flown by the B-17 crews, alot of the B-26's missions were low level bombing runs. These guys were actually low enough to be shot at with small arms !

Another one of Hitlers screw-ups during that war was not supporting the development and production of a four engine long range bomber. Hard to believe that even with seeing the Allies success with the B-17 and the English Lancasters the Germans never had a four engine bomber. Hitler bet on putting everything into Medium range twin engine bombers instead . . . . and LOST !

'Crockett

Over 4,000 bomber crews died & ships were lost bombing Germany out of the 'war business' from England.

After VE day everyone worked to defeat Japan.

Just prior to the Atomic bombings it was thought that B-29 wouldn't have enough power to get out of the way even in a 'stripped' condition.

They had been droping leaflets on Hiroshima warning the people but the Jap government said it was a lie and the civilians all stayed there.

"Test runs", if you will.

Anyway; Someone found out that the superchargers were set to low (only half way)and the rest is history.

JM...

Speaking of multiple sources, the Rolls/Merlin was built under licence by Packard, and I've heard that the British air crews prefered the Packard version because the tool kit provided with each engine had good forged tools rather than the stamped steel versions provided by Rolls.

Crockett,the B-26 had the lowest loss rate of any US bomber aircraft,you can give give credit to the crews and a tough machine.In general,US warplanes were more rugged than any Allied or Axis aircraft,the US philosophy was to protect the airman, even if that meant sacrificing performance.
The P-47 fighter was able to absorb massive amounts of battle damage and still fly on.One P-47 pilot on ground support mission,most dangerous,described how his ship would shudder as Axis ground troops sprayed small arms fire as he passed over head at low altitude,he just flew on,riddled with bullet holes.The photos of B-17's missing all sorts of parts and still landed safely are famous.The Germans figured it took at least 20 rounds of 20mm cannon concentrated in one area to bring one down.The Grummen aircraft works who supplied planes to the US Navy was nicknamed "Iron Works" cause of their ruggedness.When the Japanese bacame fustrated by not being able to bring down B-29's,they resorted to ramming the bombers with fighters.One B-29,nicknamed "Lassie come home",was rammed in an engine by a Jap fighter,the giant engine fell off,leaving part of the fighter still attched to the bombers wing.The B-29 still continued on it's mission.A second fighter rammed into the main body,the bomber flew on,it's crew still manning the guns.Finally the B-29 fell apart in mid air.In a book written by a Japanese war pilot,who's name I forget,described how early in the war,B-25's came over Japanese islands at low level,virtual suicide missions,he was impressed at their bravery and skill.No American air mission at any time during WW2 ever turned back no matter how severe their loses.
The US had 55,000 airmen killed over Germany,the British about the same number,it was far more danger than faced by ground troops.
Remembering these planes and their engines,one must never forget the men who flew in them.

Right on, Tony....

Always liked the B-25's with the 75mm canon in the nose. B-25's really raised hell in the Pacific, skip bombing, strafing.... The Japanese hated that plane almost as much as the P-38 & F4U!

Does any one know why the Navy fighter planes had the letter designation F (F4U, F6F) while the Army planes had a P (P-38, P-51)?

When the USAF was formed they were all F then (F-80, F-86). Where the bomber planes were always a B before and after.

JM....

"P" (P-51, P-38...) stands for pursuit. They changed it to "F" (F-51, F-86....) for fighter in the late 40's or early 50's. "B" (B-17, B-52) stood for bomber and still does. There is also an "A" (A-20, A-10) designation, stands for attack. Some time in the 60's they started the numerical order at 1 again. That's why you had an F-106 (which is older), serving along side the F-4, (newer).

This can get real confusing when they redesignate an aircraft.

ex. The Douglas A-26 was changed to B-26 after WWII. However, there was a B-26 made by Martin during the war, (this is the one referenced as having the lowest loss rate). To make this worse, both were twin engined aircraft of similar size. Also the Douglas A-26/B-26 had a very low loss rate, (some say lower than the Martin B-26).

Yes I'm a WWII aircraft nut. This stuff has been locked up in my head since I was a kid!

Forgot the Navy,

Not sure about thier designations. But I'll try.

Navy Fighters start with an F, (F2A Buffalo, F6F Hellcat, F4U Corsair.....)

Navy Scout Bombers start with SB, (SBD Dauntless, SB2C Hell Diver....)

Torpedo Bombers start with TB, (TBD-1 Devastator, TBF Avenger.....)


Patrol Bombers start with PB, (PBY Catalina, PB4Y Privateer).

I think this is close but maybe not 100% right.

BIG SALUTE to all the veterans out there.

Watched a show about D-day last Sunday. The honor and sacrifice brought tears.

Naval aircraft designations coded the Type AC,number of types accepted from that manufacturer, and the manufacturer of that plane.
So an SBD was Scout Bomber (first type)Douglas. A DC3 was coded R4D = Transport (4th) Douglas.TBF= Torpedo Bomber (1st)Grumman. A license built Avenger by GM was a TBM. GM- made Corsairs were FMs. If the Bureau of Aeronautics accepted Army type AC for Naval service, they got navy designators. B-25 was the PBJ (Patrol Bomber, North American), B-24 was the PB4Y -- the U.S. Navy used 2 types of PB4Ys -- the single tailed "Privateer" for long range patrol bombing and anti-submarine warfare, and the twin tailed "Liberator" type for photo recon.
The system remained in effect until about '61 when MacNamera reformed both the Navy and Air Force nomenclatures into a new single system. Thus the McDonnel "Phantom" F4M became the F-4.

A good D-Day film is Saving Private Ryan, but far to graphic tor younger viewers.

It will be intersting to see how the media portrays VJ Day in August. A few years back the showing of the ENOLA GAY was cancled because the Japs made a huge 'fuss' about it all. I think that was 1995 at the 50th..

It has been moved to a museum somewhere and the front part is all that remains.

JM......

check out Rod Hatfield(from australia)who's in the states,at the moment doing the rounds of the show scene(and cleaning up!)with his double blown ford shotgun powered T-bucket and his-get this-fully street redgo'd(in OZ)2000hp supercharged V12 rolls royce merlin powered '55 chev.painted like a WW2 figther plane with a display to match.this car is totally awsome!hia drive car is also their and is a rat rod modle A pickup powered by a blown V12 flat head ford lindcon.all his cars are interesting.he is now building a rolls V12 (unblown)tank enging powering a '40's style beach racer-this should be good!