Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines RHD Potsal Jeep 232 AMC 6 cyl

Hy. I love my postal jeep, excelent cruiser, freeway , fast, sand jeep, 2WD posi traction, lifted 2 .5 inches, with 33/12.50/15 tires on 15X10 white spoke wheels(painted black, the jeep is white, soon it'll be navy air force flat grayish color). I want your opinion on the set up I have, and the modifications I could make to the engine . It is a daily driver(not a dragster, nor a rock crawler, but a street and beach/sand truck). Curently I have a Weber 32/36 on a 258 aluminum intake manifold.(mine original was the 232 steel/heavy intake manifold and the infamous Carter one barrel carb)with electric choke.Clifford 6 into 2 headers(after collectors, used a Y pipe into one muffler.).Cyl head got a valve job(stock, no milling yet). Got an MSD 6A ignition box and a MSD 8516 distributor. MSD 8.5 cables. Accel super coil. I love the motor, no need for a V8, no way, and, to finnish, the jeep came with a 727 torqueflite gear box. I will post some pixes. I would like to know if anybody has installed the MSD dist and 6A box in their in liner. I want to know if I am just alucinating or if it really is as powerfull as I think it got? There is a lot of difference(or at least I imagine it) between the stock E C box and this MSD 6A, as well as the stock dist and the MSD dist. Anyways, all these parts have given it a much needed pep up, from the days of the one barrel Carter to what it is now. It is no stroker, but certainly it is a world apart from the stock set up.
Late.

I forgot to say, I got rid of the EGR valve, my jeep came with no catalic conv, and the PCV valve was also taken off, instaed I have the rocker cover breather and a second breather from the hose that used to go into the PCV valve, positioned next to the one at the valve cover(same height). The PCV valve opening is being plugged with a pipe plug. The engine is smoother, cooler(no more hot scrappy air into intake), and the carburetor is always clean, no more mess up from the engine vents. The engine breathes and vents excelent, efficiently. The 6 into 2 into Y pipe headers sounds powerfull, I never though it could sound so cool. It is better a sound than the V8's, which sound like a fishermans' boat, the 6 inline with this headers sound class, power, means business.
6 in line is the way to go.

Hello, sounds as if you have a love afair going! I love my AMC too. The MSD is a great way to pep one up. As you allready know there are several other things you could do in the future when enough now is just too little in the future. What kinf of cam do you run? .050 numbers?

Hy Sixpack, yes, I love my 6 cyl motor. It is a shame that the actual market spends so much effort into V8's and virtually(eccept by Clifford and very few others)nothing in favor of 6 cyl motors, which are as american as the apple pie. My cam is stock right now, but for my next upgrade, cyl head work, as well as a cam will go in force. I've heard that the best thing to do about the cyl head is to get a 4.0L cyl head, block some water passages to fit the 232 block, and install it, for about 40 extra HP. That, added to a cam, will make things happen faster.
Once the cyl head and cam are in(future), a triple DCOE carb set up would be excelent catalic for the performance sought. I will enjoy the actual set up, look for a 4.0L head, put it together(cover water ports, bigger valves,mild milling), get the cam,and the 3 DCOE's, and that will be the next level.
I heard something about 3 one barrel carbs on a 6 in line. Would it be posible to install 6 one barrel units on the AMC liner? I've seen japanese car magazinnes and some guys there use motorcycle carb on 4 cyl motors, 4 carbs per motor, perhaps the weber ...(there is a Weber carb, a one barrel)... one barrel carb, with home made ...(or a steel intake 232, which is steel, cut at the runners and adapted to each single barrel carb)...manifolds would work like a dream. Perhaps the best alternative is still the 3 DCOE sidedraft Weber carbs. FI is good, but 3 sidedraft carbs are in a different league, fun, powerfull and throatty.
Late______________________________

I run triple DCOE's on my Aussie Hemi Charger, and they are excellent carbs!
They are very tunable and responsive, great set up visually too...

Triple DCOE, that is my dream set up, how is it going? you say it works good, I'm sure it does, I think that is what this 6 cyl needs, it is a big motor, and 6 cyl in line need more food to deliver. Any pixes from your Aussie 6er?
Also, I am thinking about the dist curve, my new dist comes with springs to change the dist advance, as wellas a couple bushings for the total advance. Comes fact with the sturdiest springs(slowest cent response), as well as the next to slowest total advance bushing. Being a stock motor with headers, aluminum 258 intake, 32/36 Weber , MSD dist and 6A box, (no internals yet) I will not go to the full advance set up, too much, but a intermediate set up would be better. I've never dealt with this area before, but, the current springs will not allow full advance untill 5 or 6 thousand RPM, obviously too far away. I should see the max advance at aprox 3500, if not wrong. Also, the total advance bushing is low, at about 21 degrees, the next one being 28, the next one, I believe, 30something, so I think I should go up to the 28, right?
Any experienced dist comments, welcome, I want to get the best out of this MSD set up.
Those triple DCOE's, man, I am drooling.

Later

Cheers.
Jaime.____________________________

I can not really comment on your timing, since I do not know what the AMC engine "like" but full adavance by 2800 or so would be more inline then where you are at. As far as initial, have to just see what the engine likes.

Weber wise, the great thing about them, is thier ability to be tuned for just about anything I'd say. You can change venturies/chokes to alter CFM, emmulsion tubes,jets,etc,etc are all very easy to change... you can actually get to the tubes and jets with just the unscrew of a wing nut.

I posted a couple of pics in the Mopar section, have a look if you are curious

3500 seems a bit late to me also, 2600 to 2800 more reasonable. Multiple carbs I have no experience with so it will have to be you to be the pioneer. Webers were also my dream, so much so that I almost converted three to EFI. Block all passages and use the internal cavity to house the IAC and the idle air feeding the other two carbs. I had it all planned out and converted the center carb before deciding to make my own intake using acommon plenum for easier tuning. Still love the look!

Hy. Oz Hemi has the set up already, he is the pioneer. As of now I just have a Weber 32/36 downdraft, which I got because I was still under smog klaws, now my jeep is smog free, exempted, so, later on, the DCOE's will come in.
I was doing a little research, reading Des Hammil's "Ignition systems", plus the instructions by MSD. My jeep manual calls for 28 to 36 degrees of total advance at 200 RPM. The idle RPM calls for 5BTDC.+ 2 if needed. The engine is got a refurbished cyl head, new valves, no other internals(cam etc) yet. Headers, weber, and the electronic goods(Dist & EC box), so by following the readings, I should start by using the most idle advance I can get, so pro-
bably 8BTDC will be fine. Total advance is equal to centrifugal(mechanical adv) plus initial(idle) advance, now, I know the total advance from my jeep manual, 28 to 36, so if I stick with the max, 36, then,
36(total ADV)= cent adv + 8BTDC(Idle/initial ADV)..............
so, 36 - 8(idle)=centrifugal(mech ADV)
28=centrifugal (mech ADV)
...so then, my cent adv is going to be 28 degrees. With the idle at 8 BTDC. Total ADV 36.
My MSD dist comes with a adv bushing for 28 degrees(limits the mech/centrifugal ADV). I will use that one. (others for 18, 21, 25 are included, stock comes with the 18, I was told, for safety reasons). The guy at MSD told me that if the book says 28 to 36, I should go for a 32 , that would be 32= or - 4 degrees(28/36) . If I use that figure, then, if keeping the idle at 5BTDC, then the cent adv would be 32-5=27. So I could use the 25 bushing or the 28 bushing. He recomende to start with the 25.
The springs will also be changed , it comes stock with the sturdiest springs, too stiff, I will change them(provided w/ assortment of springs for dist)to the fastest(about 2200-2500 full advance)...or there is the second fastest, at 3300-3500RPM. The MSD guy recomended to start with the second fastest, the 3300 RPM. Right now, the bushing in the dist is not reaching top adv untill about late 5 thou to 6 thou, too far away for my motor. I will do this this week, it is a simple needle nose pliers operation. Des Hammil book says that hemispherical comb chambers can go up to 44 degrees. Following the photos in the book, my 232 cyl head looks hemispherical, big, round comb chamber,I would like confirmation on this if somebody knows this. I've seen my cyl head when I took it off for check out/new valves etc(no milling yet), is it hemispherical?
I will post my progress. I will try the 3500, then up to the 2200, let's see how it works.
Six, how is that FI working??
Oz Hemi, I saw those pixes, now...I can not sleep without dreaming about it....

Late_______________

I changed my advance springs, used the second to fastest set up, one light gray and one light blue, much thinner than the springs coming in the distributor from factory. Now the advance is excelent, still, I can try the fastest set up, two light gray springs( take out the light blue), no detonation/pingling, so it is not over advanced. I also changed the total advance bushing from the factory 21 to the 28 degree one. Works oK. The pick up is amazing, I still have to adjust my carb idle, to it's better calibration, as well as the initial advance, just needs some fine tunning. MSD guys told me they send the dist from factory with the slowest set ups for safety. I think, the best approach will come out after a cam is installed. I am very happy anyways, the ignition system is made the car 500% better. Has anybody made a cold box for a carburetor? I am thinking about building one for the Weber 32/36. I can get a top and bottom air filter housing, close it with metal all around(as if a filter) except for the front, and connect a hose to the front of the car. I think I would have to use a filter at the front, like the EFI filters, right? or shoud it be positioned(filter) halfways through the hose to the cold box? Coldboxes are supposed to help performance.
Later.______________

I'm not sure I understand the logic of taking a PCV valve off.
One of the few emission controls that actually helps the engine.
Keeps the oil side cleaner by getting rid of vapors.
If the the engine runs substantially different after removal then maybe the old valve was defective or carb tuning was just a bit off.

Hy. After reading about the functionality and reasons for the PCV(positive cranckcase ventilation system)...system in our cars, at least in the 70's vehicles, and even in modern ones...(racing modern engines have the engine vented through breather filters/ bottles, etc, not into the intake manifold and air filter housing, unless racing requierements ask for compliance with manufacturers stock configurations.)... I learnt that the PCV system is meant to burn the oxigen depleted, hot and oily gummy like air, a by product of the moving of the engine parts within the engine block, and valve area, within the ignition chamber(cylinders), never to allow it to reach the atmosphere, for the purpose of air pollution, to burn it, and ,in a way, treat this air before the hidrocarbons and other materials go free into the atmosphere. There is no advantage for the performance of your motor in re/burning this air within the ignition chamber,{ carburetion, ignition within the chamber,intake manifold,all of this parts/situations requiere clean , cool air to go in, not hot, oxigen deprived,gummy mass of air which will take the place of clean cool air needed for combustion}it could only hinder performance and efficiency. This bad air raises the temp in the intake manifold, and the carburetor, aside from the gunk deposits it leaves inside carbs,air filters,intake manifold, etc.All vehicles have a hose comming from the rocker cover/valve cover into the carburetor air filter. The manifold is connected to the hose comming from the engine block through the PCV valve, which only opens under high to partial vaccumm(deceleration /idle and easy cruising). Some cars have no block hose, instead, a second valve cover/rocker cover opening/hose, this one to the PCV valve in the intake manifold. Under vaccumm, the pcv valve opens, and the gummy air by product of the engine work goes into the intake manifold, then into your pistons,certainly doing nothing good to the ignition/engine performance.This gummy air is displacing cool good air and mix from the carburetor, it is not just an add on, it takes space needed for the good air within the cylinder, more gunk, less space for good air. Well, at the same time, as air leaves the block through the pcv valve into the intake manifold, air is coming into the engine through the valve cover hose from the carburetor connection.This hose connection, within the same air filter housing shared by the carburetor barrels, is competing and robbing away air available for the carburetor, so, if not having a super charger, or cold air box to feed extra air into the air filter/carburetion, then, you can imaging the competition for air within the air filter housing.Even if you do,{have a extra available supply of air) still, you are not maximizing, you are loosing precious air flow.
When vaccumm drops, as in flooring ,pedal to metal, acceleration, fast moving, uphill, etc, the vaccumm in the manifold is not powerfull enough to open the PCV valve. Now, the ventilation avenue for the block is closed, and all the ventilation is done through the valve cover, out the valve cover hose, into your carburetor, all that gunk is being sent straight into the carburetor ,going into the cylinders, all mixed up with your gas and air, messing up the nice mixture we hope to send into the combustion/cylinder area for ignition and power development. Guess why some carbs look all gunked up. If a PCV valve is neglected, then all the time 100%, not only under acceleration(no vaccumm) the gunk comes out of the engine through the valve cover into the carb, making things much worse for the carb, for the ignition, for the power development. In any event, even if well taken care off, still, as described before, the damage is done.
By disconnecting the hoses to the carb and PCV valve, and connecting 2 breathers...(one for each hose)..., positioned at the same height as the highest one...(valve cover one is the highest, in case of the other ventilation avenue being the block vent.In case of 2 valve cover hoses, both would be at the same height)...for them to effectively scavenge the bad fumes from the engine,{pulling up effect, as in a smoke stack} and by taking away and closing the PCV valve opening...(pipe plug does it)...you will asure a clean carburetor, cool manifold, clean and efficient ignition within the cylider,excelent clean "meant to be" mixture through the carburetor,no vaccumm loss in the system...(used by the hoses of the PCV system, which could be used by your ignition distributor vaccumm advance, and by your carburetor.)...and a efficient, clean ventilation system(block) by which bad air, gunk, goes out of your motor, and only clean air goes in, not competing with the air available for the carburetor throttles, not re burning gunk. The mission of the ignition event...(Intake, compression, ignition,and exhaust )... is to produce power by pushing down the cylinder , creating power to move the crankshaft, and the reburning of bad air is not a requierement at all. With 2 breathers, the engine will take clean, fresh air in, and get rid off bad air out in no time, in an efficient manner, without any negative consecuences.
Enviromentally speaking, we are a minority, auto enthusiasts, and the impact on pollution is negliable, I am not advocating automakers to do away with the system of PCV, but in older cars, this system is not efficient. New cars are built with all this pollution devices into account, make up for the losses,there is compensation,{ 4 valves per cylinder,twin OHC, computer controled devices as oposed to vaccum control, more RPM, more torque,etc} well thought in the design process. Before, when many of our engines were designed,these devices where added on to engines already designed, never taken into account the cons of such intrusions into performance.
As said before, ventilation is needed, I never said get rid of the ventilation, the block needs to ventilate, my question and advice is, what are you doing with this gunk air, do you want to hinder your performance?.Why would you sabotage the perfect mix in your carburetor, the nice intake manifold, the temperature of your engine,it's performance, with gunk, hot oxigen dpleted bad air?
To finnish, a neglected PCV valve creates caos, that is the danger of using this PCV valve system. If it shuts close, then the engine will spurt gunk through the valve cover into your carburetor, and again into your engine,and worst, this valve cover is not enough to vent the engine,{only one avenue open } so, guess how is the gunk and bad air is going to come out,.... through your gaskets, that is right, causing a leaky engine, head, gas pump, oil pum, valve cover,rear seal,timming chain, etc gaskets will become avenues for hot pressurized air to exit the engine. Massive engine leakage, bad gaskets all around.It can become a costly proposition.
Hope to bring in some insight into the PCV system and its hindering on performance and efficiency.

Later.______________________________

PJP, the FI works great. All the tuning you would ever need. The current intake at the end of the pics uses three 56mm butterflies from the 87-90 4.0 jeep motor. The intake in the first pic used two 60mm 91 and up tb's. Pics in the racing section- John B

run an MSD 6a on my 265 hemi with the chrysler electronic dizzy.run a total of 35" advance at 2500rpm(idle runs 15" advance)works really well as i'm running 11.5:1 comp with propane fuel with a locally made alloy head and triple mixers and duel converters

Hy. Looks like your car is really moving, what a difference a good ignition system does.
You mentioned 35 degrees total advance, 15 initial, so your centrifugal advance is going at around 20 degrees,right?
The more compression the engine has, seems like the more initial/idle advance needed, and to compensate, less centrifugal. That is why the MSD guys told me they deliver the dist with the lowest centrifugal advance bushing , a high compression engine , with a high initial adv, could blow up if allowed excesive mechanical/centrifugal advance. BTW, are you talking about the Australian/NZ chrysler Hemi 265 motor?
I need a cylinder head work, a cam, and better induction to get there. Still, it is so much better than stock, there is no way back!
Sixpack, I could not see those pixes, I can not find a racing area.
Later__________________________

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