Inliners International Forums General Discussion Drive Train R11 Overdrive units?

Hi all... I'd like to know more about the Borg-Warner overdrive units in the R11 size.

What vehicles were they fitted to? How easy are they to come by? Does anyone here have any, and are they for sale?

I love the B-W overdrive, I've driven with them in many cars including Toyota Crowns, Wolseley 6/90, many an Austin A99, Thunderbird, Studebaker and Nash Statesman. Only the A99s were my own, however.

Now I'm looking at putting one onto a more modern 3-speed transmission and would like to start accumulating parts for the purpose. Hope you guys can help me.

Looks like I've struck something nobody knows anything about!

Anyone got any clues for me?

Adapting an early Borg-Warner overdrive to "a more modern 3-speed transmission" will not be simple and will likely involve some expensive machine work.

i suggest that you look for a Saginaw three-speed overdrive (a Borg-Warner unit) transmission used in 1965-1970 behind Chevrolet inline sixes and small-block 283 V8s. Using the mainshaft from the three-speed transmission, you can also adapt this unit to a Saginaw four-speed. If you acquire one of these overdrives, make sure that you get all of the parts, most especially the solenoid, which--as i have discovered to my chagrin--is unique to this application.

For a manual of Borg-Warner overdrive operation and some parts, see

http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/parts/index.html

For a Borg-Warner overdrive service manual, see

http://carburetor-manual.com/borg-warner-overdrive-transmission-shop-repair-manual-ebook-p-322.html

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

For an online .pdf file of the Borg-Warner service manual, see

http://www.packardinfo.com/xoops/html/downloads/BW_OD.pdf

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Don:
Thanks from me as well for the information. I've been looking for information on the 12 volt soleniod and relay... Prices made my eyes real big though.

Thanks again:
Paul...aka Xerxes

Do not dispose of your old overdrive solenoids. They can be rebuilt. Most fail when a fusible link inside melts.

Thanks for the replies, guys, but I don't think you understand what I want...

I know it won't be easy... expensive and troublesome is more like it.

But my problem is finding one! Can anyone give me some clues on how to locate the things?

I understood that they're in Chevys to about '65 as mentioned by don 1450. But we didn't get them here, none of them. Even if I have to buy the complete transmissions, I'm prepared to chase them up. I don't have access to junkyards that might have them in, and they really shouldn't be expensive as they're 'old technology' and few today would understand them.

Any possibilities?

i just sold one of the older (1955-1964) Chevrolet three-speed-with-overdrive transmissions behind a 235 in a 1952 two-door--but, like you, the buyer wants to use it. i recently bought a complete Studebaker three-speed-with-overdrive for my 1949 pickup. These pieces usually become available when some otherwise sane individual chooses to replace a perfectly good inline drivetrain with some sort of "350-350" combination.

In looking for Saginaw overdrive parts i have had conversation recently with several Inliners who have the earlier Chevrolet overdrive. Surely someone in the States has a Borg-Warner overdrive assembly that they would sell and ship to you. Salvage yards specializing in GM and Studebaker parts would be among the places to inquire. An ad in the Inliner classifieds might yield what you want. Especially at your distance, you will want to assure that what you buy is complete.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

I can get (have got...) R10 units. They came here in numbers. But I want the R11, which would be more prevalent in the later models, I would think.

Another question...

Did Impalas have the R11 on them in the early sixties? I guess we're likely talking 283s and 327s here.

I can't help you directly, but here's some data for you regarding the R10.

I just (Feb08) rebuilt a T-96 with R10 OD for my daily commuter, 63 Rambler American. (I've got the "Twin Stick" version, with the two-year-only wide ratio 2 - 3 meant for "splitting" with the stick-shift OD ... five forward speeds with two levers... kool) Lots of the AMC T-96's had R10s on them. The T-96 is not only weak, it's getting really $$$ to buy parts for.

I also have a plain-jane AMC T-14 in the pile, a decent all-synchro 3-speed. And it sure looked a lot like the T-96... so I did the comparison whilwe the T-96 is apart.

You could pull the R10 unit off a T-96 and BOLT IT ONTO the T-14 with two exceptions:

* You need to bore out the back of the T-14 case, that currently has the output shaft bearing in it, to accept the R10 adapter. Fairly straightforward machining job, just needs accurate placement and size.

* Here's the bummer: the T-14 output shaft. Rather than extending out through the tail housing to meet the yoke, it instead is short and fits into the planetary jobbie in the R10. You'd have to fabricate this part, though in AMC-land there WAS a T-14+R10 OD available, though it was rare, so the part does exist, and I have it's parts number. I've never asked the likes of Northwest Transmissions if they can find one (just what I need, another !@!@!$$ project.)

* There's also the matter of the Reverse-OD lockout pushrod, but you really could just leave that out.

I hope this helps.

During the time my son and I were accumulating and breaking Studebaker OD transmissions I often thought of turning the ODs into stand alone units. It seems that it would take much less machining to seal the front with a custom front plate and hook it inline to what ever tranny you want than to try and actually "adapt" it to a unwilling host. I was told by several Stude guys that the best/strongest ODs are the T85s. Ours were T86s. Leadfoot Jr blew one in low seeking traction by applying more pressure to the throttle. He blew two under boost in second just before shifting into high. I don't know the difference between the R10 and R11 units but have heard that they are very similar and some parts interchange. We have never broken an OD unit. There is a group called the Old Berb Club ( GM Suburbans ) that posted some Overdrive info a few years ago. It took me a long time to locate the one Saginaw 3 speed OD I have.That unit is going on the back of a Saginaw 4 speed some day. They don't seem to be plentiful. I'm always on the lookout for them. If I run across one I'll let you know. The Hot August Nights swap meet is coming soon. I really like the feel of driving with these old OD trannys. They can be made to do a lot.

Oh yes they can be made to do a lot!

Thanks for the posts, guys. I found a site which mentions that the T85 fitted to some Fords has the R11, and yes, it seems they do have a lot of commonality. I don't know if they are completely common apart from the planetary gears, but what I've been told is that they basically are, they have four planetary gears instead of the three in the R10.

Again, I'm not interested in an R10, I have one of them and I could find more. If, however, it turns out that the cage and gears could be slipped into an R10 from an R11, I don't think I'd need anything else.

Problem is I simply don't know.

Another point... I don't regard them as of much use with a 4-speed. At least with the gear spacing of a typical 4-speed. I reckon they're best used to split the gears, as they do nicely in most 3-speeds. A 4-speed basically only uses them a cruising option, though in some circumstances it's an easier way to slip up to the next gear for a bit if you know you're going to need to go back again shortly.

I'm installing an R11 behind a T-10 in my '41. Both for gear splitting and for the OD it would provide. The R11 is much stronger with 4 planetary gears instead of the 3 on the R10. I killed R10's on regular basis before behind Saganaw 4 speeds and have grown a little shy of useing them again. I can see why you would want one. Hard to find! Good luck!

Armond, could you tell me then...

Is the only difference the cage and planetaries? Or are other things bigger or stronger or whatever? Is the detail (spline, length etc) on the end of the mainshaft coming into them the same?

Never thought about making an R10 (r11..) OD standalone, behind a standard trans! Good idea!

I didn't meant to argue "in favor" of the R10 vs R11, it's just all I know :-)

I really like my OD unit. Yeah, a T4 or T5 would have obvious advantages, but it wouldn't have the character of a 3 speed plus OD. I like the OD! If I wanted a !@!@#!! new car I'd buy one!

Who wouldn't want this setup?

http://wps.com/AMC/1963-Rambler-American/images/lm8.jpg

(Photo is post cleanup, pre-customization :-)

Just looking inside and from what I've read, R11's are larger all the way through inside. Ford used them a lot on the T-85N transmissions and I've seen them on ebay which is where I found the T-10/R11 already set up. There was an address on the trans - -
Burrel's Service
P.O. Box 456
Keego Harbor, Michigan 48033

I will do a search and if they are still in business, will forward their number on to you. From my understanding, they used to build these things for early '70's Vettes. Here ya go - - -

Burrell's Service Inc
PO Box 456 Keego Harbor MI 48320
810-682-2376

So, did the Saginaw 3 speeds use R11s? I haven't looked inside mine yet. Yes, Tom, I agree with you new car statement. At least we can work on these. This is a good thread keep it going.

I have a couple of Chevrolet overdrive transmissions (solenoid sticking out of the side) They are in fair condition with but I have no idea how to identify what they are or what year. Any body over there have a clue how to identify what I have. I don't intend to use them as my '40 chev has the T-5 transmission installed but would like them to find a good home.

If the side plate has the same shape as a Saginaw 4 speed it is a Saginaw 3 speed OD. Some of those were a close ratio 3 speed. That OD is, I think, an R11 and can be put on a Saginaw 4 Speed. I don't know how many different 3 speed ODs were used on Chevys. These Borg ODs are fun to drive. I have a T5 in my pick up but I think the Borg is more fun. Do yours have a 2 bolt mount pad on the OD case?

You should find a number cast somewhere on the rear housing of the overdrive unit. It will have either 'R10' or 'R11' as part of the number.

Please e.mail me pics of these units r@ybell.net ... what year are they from?

I have an R7 (38 Stude) and 5 R10s, all plainly marked on the side and some have an additional letter which I assume means either year or more likely, the brand of tranny it fits. I have 2 Fords, 2 Studes and a Chev with R10s. Sam

Still no luck with this one...

Anyone found an R11 yet?

Maybe check with this guy:

http://www.hermtheoverdriveguy.com/

When I was looking at an OD unit off of eBay, he was helpful over e-mail and said he could go through it to verify operation if I had it shipped to him. Maybe he has a line on finding an R-11 for you.

Have you done an eBay search for your R-11?

I am curious as to the advantage of using a 3spd with overdrive over a four speed. Why not just go with a four speed?

I have a '57 Bel Air with a three speed. I have read where someone installed a 4 speed and used the OD handle to engage reverse gear and that it was pretty simple.

I am wondering if anyone knows how feasible it would be to install a 4 speed and use the OD handle to shift into 4th gear, leaving the column shifting positions unchanged. To me, the OD solenoid and all of that seems unnecessary for driving and somewhat complicated as well, but I am not mechanically savvy enough to know how difficult it would be to fabricate 4th gear linkage to be able to be controlled with the OD handle, or how readily the existing 3 speed linkage could be adapted to control the first three gears in the 4 speed, along with reverse (or if any of this can even be reasonably done.)

I'd like a 4 speed, but I don't want a floor shifter in my 4 door sedan. I like the column shift!

Bryan

There are lot's of 3 speed Overdrive trannys out there from '50s GM cars and pickups that would bolt onto your '57 and use the stock linkage. Once engaged with the cable the OD works automatically. With a couple of wires and a button you can also work the solenoid at will to split each gear giving you a 6 speed. Borg Warner ODs are not hard to understand you just need to study them a little. Working reverse with a separate cable could mean disaster if you forgot to take it out if reverse before shifting into low. We get programed to shift into a gear and the linkage takes care of shifting out. One quick back up and a bang into low to get into traffic and you have a no speed!

Thanks for the input. Yes, I was concerned about that reverse setup too, which is why I didn't want to try it. The OD as designed makes the most sense to me; I thought that a 4th gear might be a little less complicated in terms of installation compared to the OD solenoid, kickdown switch, etc.

I just ran across this again. Here is a link to an article from the Old Berb Club about wiring a Borg OD. LINK