Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Consistency with a 230/Transmission Advice

Stroker Ace’s recent post about his 250 Nova got me thinking about some advice I need. My car is a 1965 Chev Nova station wagon. It weighs 3059 pounds without the driver. I don't drive the car much around town other than to get to the two drag strips nearby—one at about 5 miles and one at about 36 miles from my house. The primary use for the car is the drag strip with an occasional weekend car show. The 230 ci inliner was a rebuilt engine when I bought the car three years ago and didn't have many miles on the rebuild. It had been bored .040 over and is a “standard” rebuild without balancing, or any special lower-end work; thus, I’ve got the rev limiter set at 6200 just to be safe.

The rear end is a 4.11 positraction. I've been running 24 inch street tires, which means I'm through the 1/4 mile traps at about 4800 rpms. I have been shifting the Powerglide at around 6000 rpms. The PG has had a rebuild, a shift kit installed, and I'm running a 3000 stall speed converter. I can foot-brake it and the rpms climb to 3000 before the rear tires break loose. I usually launch the car at around 2800 rpms. I’m pretty sure the first gear is a 1.82. I don’t have any traction bars on the car, but I also don’t have a wheel hop. The car leaves the line pretty strong with no hesitation.

The headwork has been done by Tom Lowe. It includes 1.94 intake valves, 1.60 exhaust valves, bolt-in lumps, ported head, 3/8 screw-in studs, and a performance valve job. Compression ratio is about 9:1. The cam is a Schneider 295H grind with .510 lift, intake is 224 duration at .050” and exhaust is 230, with lobe separation of 110.

I’m running an Offy intake manifold with a Holley model 8007 390 cfm 4-barrel carb. I use Langdon headers with 2¼” stubby headers down to the back of the front tire and then a single exhaust system to the rear. I use an HEI ignition, recurved to be all-in at 3000 rpms. I normally run about 32 to 36 degrees total.

I’ve been to the drag strip once this year since the head work was done, along with the new cam and the 4-barrel intake system. My best ¼-mile time is 16.3 and 79.3 mph. My best 60’ time has been 1.989. My last three runs in September were 15.612, 15.639, and 15.668, with 60’ times at 2.231, 2.255, and 2.318, respectively. Not too bad for a little 230. BTW, at our September meet , I lost in the first round of eliminations by .0033. Hard to even measure that!

My questions are related to transmission. By next season, I’m thinking about a change and would appreciate some advantages/disadvantages from you folks. I’m thinking about the following options: 1) adding a transbrake to the PG; 2) going to a Turbo 350 three speed; and 3) going to a 200 4r OD. With options 2 and 3, I’m also thinking that a converter in the 4000 to 4200 rpm range would be helpful. I’m a bit concerned that the 350 or the 200 4r will suck up too much horsepower and I’d end up still running 15.6’s after quite a bit of investment. That’s why I’m thinking that Option 1 may have advantages. With Option 1, I’d also add CalTrac traction bars and a set of their split single leaf springs.

Any thoughts?

A PG trans is really good for a BBC or big engine/high HP or turboed in a light car.

Since you do not have any of the above, your little 6 needs all the help it can get help in the gear dept.

W/the 2004R you will get the better lower first gear 2.75, which you need badly running 2.2 - 2.3 60' times.
As a comparision, my stock 350/5.7 1997 Chevy extracab w/shell weighing 4900 LBS runs 2.3 -2.4 range 60' times w/3.42 rear gears, pretty pathetic.

I really like the gear spacing of the 2004R's as compared to the 7004R/4L60,65E's, plus it has a taller final drive, which will really help you out w/your 4.11's & those really small 24" tall or should I say short tires..
It must be pretty bad on the freeway as far as high RPMs.

I am pretty sure you can reuse your driveshaft w/the 2004R as well as the TH350 trans.

Your options for 2 & 3 as far as them sucking up too much power,, you will not even think about that after the fact that your car will run faster w/either trans over the PG.

I say ditch the PG, it does you no good for the way your car is set-up currently.


Two cents thrown.

What size is the single exhaust pipe to the back?

You could throw on a Clifford intake & see if your combo likes it.
But,,, IMO,unless you run a higher stall w/your current combo, the Clifford is not going to help you, just my opinion, I am surprized Tlowe did not convince you to run a Clifford from the start.

With your current combo, I would try out a 1" & a 2" (both 4 hole type) carb spacer & tune accordingly.

Also, what damper are you using?

MBHD

Thanks for the advice, Hank. You're right, the rpms at 55 mph on the highway are a bit high (my wife smiles and suggests it's time to shift again). More responses. Exhaust: after leaving the headers, the exhaust is a single 2 1/4 inch pipe all the way back. Intake: I've had the Offy intake for quite a few years, so thought I'd use it for a couple more. Carb Spacer: I used a one-inch carb spacer last year (HVH Super Sucker) and have bought a two-inch to try in the coming year. Damper: It's a rebuilt stocker from the Damper Doctor.

I like the spacer you are using. I used the plain old 4 hole spacers & open spacers, had better torque & crisper fuel metering w/the 4 hole ones.
One other thing I would do to your intake manifold is to grind the sharp edges on all 3 intake port runners.
I like to add aluminum weld to the base of the square flange area (carb area) because it will break through the runner when you grind big radius' in all 3 runners. (Hope that makes sense)

You wife is correct about needing to shift again, LOL, & you are not even going the speed limit @ 55 MPH, correct? THE overdrive will be a blessing.

In regards to a using inline 6 stock damper,,Maybe since your engine has a shorter stroke than a 250 does, With my 250s I could never really rev it too high because the engine would just vibrate so much over 5500 RPM & I would always have to shift it early because it would vibrate & not make anymore power.

After swapping to a standard SBC 8" 300 HP 350 damper the engine would go to 7000 RPM w/power. Big improvement!

I have no vibration at all at 6000 rpms with the rebuilt damper. The rev limiter is set, so won't go any higher than that. In addition, I'm unsure of the bottom end, so like to stay at 6000, just in case. Do you have a part number or other identifier for the damper you like?

Thanks for your help.

It looks like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Greywerks-SBC-CH...=item5890e59a17

http://sdparts1.reachlocal.net/details/professional-products/pp90002
This looks nice. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-8-inch-Steel...=item3356dc9b51
Dont have a PN handy.
Problem is, it's not a direct swap, no "V" grooves for the V-belts.
Guys have had machined "V" groves into them.

MBHD

I agree with MBHD on using the 2004R behind your 230. It uses smaller lighter internal parts and has much better ratios for you smaller motor. I think the 700 is a stronger trans and will stand more abuse but for your car I think the ratio spread between 1st and 2nd gear would hurt you, and I don't think you will have any problems with the 200 holding up. The overdrive will make a great difference on the trip to and from the track so you will win on both counts.

The 2004R in the Buick GN's & T-Types hold up pretty well in a stock 3600-3750 lb car & stock they are close to 300 HP, those guys usually do not have much problems w/the trannys until they are running in the 11 second range in the 1/4 mile. Then they need some tweaking/modding.

Guys have built those R4's to run in the 9's w/there GN's & T-Types w/transbrakes also.

JimRJ,
once you have done this swap, you will ask yourself, why didn't I do this trans swap a long time ago?

It will make a big improvment on your car acceleration.

MBHD

Jim, A trans brake should improve your e.t. about three to four tenths. It did on my "monkey truck". I would try that first because your reaction time will be much more consistent, in addition to having a quicker e.t. On any of the alternatives starting line consistency will only be enhanced by the use of a trans brake. Plus adding a trans brake to your existing trans will be the cheapest alternative.

You mentioned you break the tires free at 3000. Adding first gear ratio will mean you will undoubtedly break the tires loose at an even lower RPM. That, combined with your thought of adding a higher stall speed converter will mean even more torque to your tires necessitating a change in your starting line proceedures (e.g. an even lower starting line launch RPM).

For what its worth friends of mine who run a seven-second six cylinder Comp car on the national circuit switched from a 'glide to a three-speed trans and picked up hundreths of a second.

I would think adding a trans brake to his trans will shock the tires so much it will not hook either, requireing different launching techniques also.
He has no traction bars or caltracs.

A trans w/a lower first gear will be a bit more controlable as compared to using a trans brake.

Trans brakes are so vilolent it feels like your car gets rear ending everytime when you let go of the trans brake button.

I do not think it will net him 3-4 tenths right off the bat & not changing anything else IMO.

I think in comparing your monkey truck that hooks up dead nuts no matter what you did to it, big tire/slicks, as to his 24" short tires @ 3052 lb car. Not a good comparision IMO.

HMMM, lets see,,, he brakes the tires loose @ 3000 RPM,,(currently he looses traction @ 3000 RPM) add a trans brake so it will stall another 300-500 RPM , so potential launch RPM would be 3300-3500 RPM, same 24" tires, no traction devices.

You are correct about the 3-4 tenths, but it would be in the other direction 3-4 tenths slower LOL.

Also, IMO, comparing full blown race cars to his car & giving him examples of what race cars use really does not help his cause.

Sorry, to me adding just a transbrake does not make sense, so I had to say something,,, maybe I'm wrong?

Just my two cents, take it for what that's worth.

MBHD

See, what'd I tell ya.

JimRJ,
Can you give the rear tire size?

On my website is a great gear ratio calculator. It runs using Excel. http://www.12bolt.com/gearing_calculator

I think a TH350 will really help you out. I know last year you did not want to spend the extra money on a intake or trans.

The 200R4 will also help you. The TH350 will be cheaper to get the setup running and be bullet proof. The 200 R4 will definately cost more and be harder to setup if using lockup. The OD trans will not like a high stall converter.

With RPMs over 4K a Clifford intake will help.

Tom: The rear tires are 205-60 R14. According to the gearing calculator, they're 23.69 inches in diameter. Jim

Lots to think about. It seems like I need to first decide what my short and long term goals are. If I want the quickest ET in time trials, then three forward speeds would seem to help reach that goal. If I want consistency while racing—and the best chance of winning more often—then the fewest variables would seem to be the best way to reach that goal and the PG and transbrake might offer the best chance over time (assuming more seat-time for the driver). This option may not be the quickest, but certainly wouldn't be slower than the current set-up. If I want to do a bit more cruising and an easier time getting to the drag strip, then an OD and the 200R4 would fit the bill. As someone much wiser than me said, “Compromises don’t usually make consistent race cars and race cars make lousy street cars.“ So....I’ll have to think about what I want to do first, how everything fits within my budget, and what the long term plan is.

What IS clear to me, is that any of the options will need more traction control and proper chassis setup for what will be a significantly more aggressive launch. A set of CalTracs and some racing tires would seem to be in my future. Perhaps a start would be a set of taller tires to get me to the strip and then a slightly shorter pair of racing tires installed when I get there. M&H makes a 23 inch slick which would also work well with my 4.11 rear gear, in terms of slightly higher rpms at the end of the ¼ mile.

Keep the advice coming and I’ll let you know what I decide.

Quote: "The OD trans will not like a high stall converter."


Not sure why?
Guys w/there Syclones Typhoons & Buick GN's, T-Types use high stall lock-up & non lock up converters all the time & never heard anyone describe there OD trans does not like a high stall converter.

If anything, I
advocate for guys (for there street vehicles) to use as tight a stall as needed as not to lose mileage as much,(even though with the lock-up feature mileage is the same) when it seems most guys suggest to run 3400+ stall, if anything,guys w/there high stall converters on the street love the high stall, because it gets into boost much faster.

My parents 1998 Olds Intrigue 3.8 V-6 factory OD trans, brake stalls to 2600, that is the way it came from the factory.

It drives just like a normal low stall converter car would.
Driving it normal, you would not even think it could stall that high, but it does.

MBHD

Just remember, when you go to a smaller tire, the contact area gets smaller also. Meaning, there is less rubber contacting the ground.
Less/shorter sidewall,all usually means you will get less traction. Or does not work as good as a taller sidewall.

If you do run a OD trans, it's not really a compromise IMO, you get the best of both worlds, one, you can take it on the freeway & cruise & not rev the crap out of it just to keep up w/traffic,better mileage, dont need to install taller tires to take on long trips.
I am thinking if you were to keep up w/traffic on the freeway 65 MPH, you would be turning what 3500- 4000 RPM w/your PG?

W/a 4R OD .68 you could be injoying a quieter drive to the track, most definately get better mileage.

Two, you have a better overall gearing ratio w/a 4R than a PG, plus you can install a trans brake if need be.

Yes, there will be a price difference between the two, but I think w/a OD trans, you can have your cake & eat it to.

Also something to think about, not sure if you are familar w/trans brakes.
If you decide to get a 4100 stall, when you engage a trans brake, the stall will not just stay @ 4100, it will be higher.

I am thinking w/that type of stall (4400-4600 w/trans brake), you are going to be out of your peak torque & would require a bigger camshaft, more duration, & w/that you will need more compression.
It's all just a big money pit, that we all enjoy, for the most part. Just wish we had more $$$$.

I would think you can have your timing come in faster than 3000 RPM, seems a bit late.

There were concerns ( in the Syclone/Typhoon community) about different trans sucking up more power & guys wanting to change out there 700R4 & install a 4L80E.
Also concerns about, a 4L80E being a lot heavier IIRC, about 70 lb weight gain.
A 700 having a 3.06 1st as compared to a 2.48 1st in the 4l80 was also a big concern, overall first gear being taller.

Well guys have been using 4l80e' now for some time & running back to back comparision, there were no difference in ET's or MPH, even though the 4l80E added more weight, taller first gear & the fact that a 4l80e does use more power. So go figure.

Not a great comparision really because these are turbocharged vehicles & the torque they launch @ is like naturally aspirated BB torque teritory & even more.
Turbo cars, like tall gears for the most part..
My Syclone, made 550-560 ft lbs of torque & it is a 100% stock longblock.


MBHD

The tire height comment (above) is very important. In theory, the contact patch is always just enough for the air pressure to support the car weight regardless of diameter.
In practice, a taller tire is almost always better, even if you lose some effective gear ratio.
The taller tire's greater weight (like for like comparison) is also harder to get spinning and resists break-away.
Many race cars are built with the diameter of the front and rear tires as the first input, then the wheelbase.

Jim,
I am trying to dial in your car with my Gonkulator ie Computer.
I think I have a decent guess at the setup but now am confused by the et's you typed in. You refer to a best of 1.99 and 16.30 at 79.3mph, but then right below, pairs of 2.28 and 15.60s (which is better than the "best" 16.30"). So, which goes with which configuration/runs and which MPH goes with the 16.30 (unless that is a typo) and what were the MPH for the 15.60s runs?
That info will help, but in any case my calculated guesses as of now would be:
4000 stall vs your current 3000:
Nil effect, that surprised me

200-4r trans (with same 3000 stall)
almost .40 sec gain, mph about same

T350 trans:
About same as 200-4r (But no overdrive of course)

If you can elaborate on your timeslip 60ft/et/mph sets (and even for the previous configuration with the old head/cam/carb if you have any) that will help me dial the computer in better.
thanks

DeuceCoupe: That WAS a typo for my best 1/4 mile et. It's 15.3, not 16.3. The 1.99 60 ft time has not been duplicated. Not sure where it came from. My last three time slips are:

1. 60' is 2.255; et is 15.639; mph is 69.05
2. 60' is 2.231; et is 15.612; mph is 69.09
3. 60' is 2.318; et is 15.668; mph is 69.49

Thanks for the information. I'm interested in the results. Jim

What was your MPH on the 1.99 60' time.

It was early in the season last year--April. The 60 foot time was 1.989; et was 16.873 and the mph was 79.31. That run was also the highest mph for the car.

Jim,
Well I cant match all of what happened but here is what the Gonkulator says (all with 3000 stall)
Powerglide 3000 stall
2.22
10.02 at 68.5
15.77 at 85.0

Powerglide 4000 stall
2.31
10.04 at 68.7
15.78 at 85.1

T350
2.02
9.68 at 69.4
15.42 at 84.8

200-4r
1.99
9.67 at 69.1
15.43 at 84.6

Unless maybe those 69mph you gave are 1/8 mile mph, I cant get anywhere near them, not sure what is going on there. Maybe you are on the brakes at the traps or something? Hi-15s and 69mph does not seem to go together!

In any case your setup seems right on as it is, I was surprised the 4000 stall showed no gain and even adding a gear only gained a few tenths (often it is way more than that). For me I'd leave it alone, or add the 200-4r if it's a freeway cruiser. The T350 to me would not be worth the swap.

I think the MPH will be higher w/a lockup 2004r. As a guess.

I gained 2-3 MPH locking up my torque conveter as soon as it shifts into 2nd gear, but I got a turboed engine pushing 550+ ft lbs.
Heavy truck though 3600 LBS.

MBHD

DeuceCoupe:

Yes, you're right--I read the 1/8 mph numbers. I apologize. Here's the correction for the last three timeslips:

1. 60' is 2.255; et is 15.639; mph is 86.55
2. 60' is 2.231; et is 15.612; mph is 86.86
3. 60' is 2.318; et is 15.668; mph is 86.35

Thanks again for the help.

Jim