Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Which does I have? Possible swap Help?

Good morning. My son (who is 17) just picked up a 1940 Chevy with what I believe is a 216 Stovebolt to restore. (So happy the young kids are getting into these cars). The casting numbers are 839132 and the stamped numbers on the side of the block left of the distributor are 226930. From everything I have researched and the 2 bolts that hold down the value cover indicates it is a 216 but a friend insists that it is a 235. Can anyone verify what it is from the photos? Also we have the opportunity to pick up a running 250 AND 230 with an automatic transmission. We are thinking of doing a swap because they are more improved engines but wanted to hear other people's opinions.

Any information would be helpful.

What photos

216 cu. in.
year numbers block casting numbers
37 1 to 1187821 838101
838710
38 1187822 to 1915446 &
B1 to B10502 838710
39 1915447 to 2697267 &
B10503 to B105461 838941
40 2697268 to 3665902 &
B105462 to B229135 839132
41 AA 1001 to AA 1163720 &
AC 1001 to AC 19549 839400

Check 1940 in the chart. According to your number you have a 216, Get a new friend.

Choices depend totally on what your son wants to REALLY use the car for. Sometimes the hardest thing is to be honest with yourself. One car can't do everything racer, driver, show car. No matter how much time & money he expends it is only "stock" once. It can be restored to stock specs but that is not truly stock. Often a solid survivor is far more interesting than a perfect rebuild based on foreign made reproduction parts.
The 216 is a much maligned engine and is far better & stronger than its "babbitt beater" nickname would lead you to believe. The biggest issue would be finding someone who could repour the bearings if needed. There are ways around that. stock49 here is very knowledgable about these engines a new arrival is proposing some radical new mods that bring the 216 into the 21 century,

The 250-230 swap is not a bad idea, It is not difficult and parts are much easier to find as are people who know how to work on them. They could make it perfectly capable of present highway speeds and there are many performance options. There are also the "traditional" 235-261 and the GMC family or even a 292. There are lots of choices before he gets to the V8 things. Again an honest assessment of what the car will really be asked to do is crucial.

So the choices are many and it depends totally on what the 17 year old wants to tackle and what he (and those around him) are capable of. It doesn't all have to happen at once. Many of our builds evolve as skills and resources evolve. A real " hot rod" is never finished. He could be one of those guys who still has his '40 when he is an old man. Sorry for the rant, Good Luck kid!

Beater of the Pack

Thank you for being upfront with your thoughts. Being 17 he has "dreams of grandeur" which are great. The car will never be an "original" in that it needs too much work to fix the prior botched work done to her. She definitely can be resorted back to original BUT for now he is looking to make her into a good presentable weekend drivers. He would like to take her to shows, cruise nights and even a 1,000 mile weekend fall foliage tour next season. So drivability and reliability are the most important. He wanted to do a 4200 or V8 swap but I said the same thing as you...she is a work in progress. The existing 216 turns over by hand but we haven't tried to start her. I figured for the price of rebuilding the 216 I can get a 230-250 that runs and drives and is ready to go. Regardless we would remove and prep the 216 for storage so he has all the original parts. I tired to unload jpeg photos but it won't let me. I will try again.

Engine Pics in PDF

Exterior pics. Having some tech issues and the photos are being distorted and discolored. Sorry.

Another question�if we swap out our 216 w/3 speed on the column for a 250 w/350 automatic transmission is it advisable to change the stock rear end or can we keep it? If it should be replaced what do you guys (and girls) recommend? Preference is to keep it stock as we have a lot of work to do already. Look forward to receiving your input. Thanks again as these threads and forums are proving to be very resourceful and helpful!!

I think it falls into the survivor category. He doesn't have to worry about destroying a pristine vintage car but it looks pretty solid and is a cool body style. (room for the future family) I don't see any rust through spots. Quite a few missing parts hopefully some are stashed somewhere, nothing that can't be found. You can thank the bumper guard for saving a nice grill. It looks like a great candidate for a fun driver.

The driveline is closed. The driveshaft in inside a tube so it can't easily connect to a newer transmission. There are ways. The 230-250 can be adapted to the original transmission. I think, but not sure, that the third member (center section if the differential) can be swapped for a later open driveline unit. Other rear ends can be used, some GM and some foreign pickups that will keep the 6 lug wheel pattern. Others here know a lot more than I do maybe they will join in. There is a lot of work there and a lot to be learned but he has a good starting point. How did you determine the gender? I have always been intimidated when working on female cars.

In 1969 my brand new wife & I were in a car wreck on our honeymoon. She was in the hospital in Bozeman, Montana for 5 months. A guy there loaned me a '40 Chevy 4 door. All I had to do was rebuild the master cylinder and do some overdue maintenance. I drove it all over that part of Montana on all kinds of roads until the beginning of December. Never had a problem with it. It did several inches of snow with ease.

We have most of the trim pieces, all the glass, dash is decent, original headliner, complete front seat, door panels and rear side panels. The floor is "ok" with amateur patch work OEM but we intend on replacing it or repairing it correctly with. The only rot is in the truck where the spare tire went and the running board need attention.

My son would prefer to keep the column shifter. Does any know or can anyone advise as to the best way to adapt a 250 to the original 3 on the tree and what other work would be required. I prefer the 350 trans even if I have to get a custom driveshaft.

Like I said it is a great project that keeps him working with his hands, problem solving, off his iPhone and concentrating on getting her back on the road. Oh yeah and as far as gender I selected "her" because it also is keeping him busy and away from the teenage girl distractions and this day in age they are a lot more distracting than when I was his age!!

Any advice again is appreciated as we intend on tacking a lot of these items s over the school holiday break.

If he finds one of those teenage distractions that wants to work on his car she may be a keeper.

I think it was with the introduction of the 216 that Chevy introduced their standard transmission bolt pattern. That carried through the rest if the standard transmission run in full size cars & trucks even some of the S10s. If he wants to keep the stock trans & shift linkage I think a 250 set up for a standard trans will bolt up. I may take some clutch fiddling. I believe Chevy went to open driveline in '49. From about that time there was a similar 3 speed with a Borg-Warner overdrive. Another level if learning but they can enhance drivability. Some have even used the column shift to operate a Saginaw 4 speed with a separate lever for reverse. There is a ton of information on this site in old posts. Sadly a lot of the pictures are gone but a lot of discussion. The search engine takes some time to master but almost everything that has ever been posted here can be found. The limit is how much is he willing to learn and how much he is willing to do. All the skills can be learned. There are some books that cover pretty much all of what he will be doing.

Welcome to the forums. If the engine isn't locked up it will probably run. Pull the spark plugs and put a few squirts of oil into each cylinder - and then turn it over by hand. This will work the oil into the rings and clean up any surface rust (if there is any). Let it sit for a couple of days and then turn it over again by hand. Then try firing it up. These engines are work horses. The easiest path forward is to run what's already there.

As for the swap to a 230/250 there is nothing straightforward about it. The fastest way to find posts on these forums is using Google with the site: keyword. Searching "site:inliners.org swapping 216 to 250" will return a good bit of reading. Tweaking the search terms slightly will get you hits on even more posts.

Long story short, the 230/250 is longer then a 216 and uses a different motor mounting approach. It cannot be mated to the stock transmission and drive-line in a passenger car. It will require an open drive-line conversion, a newer transmission, and changes to the transmission cross-member - making it just as difficult to go back to stock. The first year for open drive-line in Chevrolet is '55. A good choice if you can find one.

Beater mentioned the transmission bolt-pattern compatibility - this started in Trucks with the SM420 (top-loaded 4 speed - granny gear). Some guys have 250s cleanly bolted into old 3xxx series Trucks. This gearbox is not an option for a passenger car as the stick is just in the wrong place.

regards,
stock49

Yes, Most of my experience with 216s is trucks & pickups. I had a completely stock '49 pickup with a 3 speed column shift. I put a 4 speed truck trans in it that was built for open drive line. I changed the rear mount that bolts to the case which also made it work with closed driveline. Later I bolted a '58 235 from a car to that trans. A 261 that I pulled from a '40 coupe with 3 speed column bolted into my '40 pickup with the stock 3 on the floor. There were length difference with the 235-261 that caused radiator clearance issues but no transmission issues. I pull a 216 from my '48 Fleetline and installed a 235 that came out of a '52 business coupe. I don't know who put it in there. When I swapped out the vacuum assist trans in the '48 for a '53 car trans I had to shorten the closed driveline 2 1/2" Could any of this be difference in car & truck bell housings? Yes the 230-250 are longer (no longer than a GMC) but a small radiator move fixes that. Mounts are not hard. The crossmember could be pain.

I agree with running what is there if possible and it can be made into a fun driver, at least at first. Get it running, have some fun, get to know the car, and learn about the options and what there require. There is plenty there to keep him busy for quite a while.

Thanks for the information. Unfortunately I already purchased a 1967 250 inline 6 that runs good. It was aged to a 350 auto which I do not have. HOWEVER assuming a 231 or 250 will bolt up to the 216 bell housing and I can use the existing 3 on the tree as well as the closed driveshaft I will sell the 250 or use it for another project. We are looking for reliability and the drivability. From what I am reading keeping the 216 isn't a bad thing either. However we want to pull the body off the frame to paint it so that is the time to swap or rebuilt the engine. To clarify the 235 and 261 can bolt right up to the 216 (assuming we change the flywheel) and we can reuse the existing trans and driveline correct?? I don't mind swapping out the rearend gears either. Just want to make it as easy as possible (oxymoron I know) as this is my son's first major project. Any advice is appreciated.

Stovebolt 1
I don�t mean to belabor the point, but I don�t think you understand what Beater and
Stock49 are trying to tell you. Converting to a 230/250 requires a complete driveline
change, trans, driveshaft and rearend. None of the original components are compatible with the 250.

If keeping the 3 on the tree is a must, you�ll have to use the original trans or use a later model three or four speed, which will require some linkage issues.

If you decide on the 250, using a Th200 or Th350 is the easiest solution.


I completely understand wanting to keep things original, but that requires a decision as to use and drivability. The 216 drivetrain has a 411 rear axle ratio, which makes the
vehicle slow, harder to achieve and maintain highway speeds.

The upgrade will give you the dependability and drivability you�re looking for.

It�s going to cost you $�s either way you go. You and your son need to decide what you
ultimately want from this vehicle.

If you plan to keep the car, making the right decision is critical.

Please keep us informed as to your decision. I have a 41 Coupe.

I'm sorry if I have confused you. Your ideas for your son's car is covering a lot of territory.
The 230-250 s a totally different engine from the 216 and even the 235 & 261. Nothing from your stock '40 running gear is easily useable. I'm not saying it can't be done but it may not be worth the effort. Here is an add for 230-250 mounts and be reading if you can see some of the issues. LINK

Here is an article about installing a 235. Patricks in no linger in business but the information in good.
LINK

My suggestion is to look up similar links on the net and read as much as you can. Find a link that covers what you decide to do and follow it. Personally I would get the 216 running. That alone would be a good experience for your son. If he wants a more modern engine that can work with the stock running gear I'd chose a 235. There are other rear end gear choices that would make highway speeds easier.

Thank you all for the response. We are going for drivability and reliability. Sounds like reliability with any Stovebolt isn't an issue, other than typical mechanical failures we would experience with any engine of that age. Ideally we keep the 216 and 3 on the Tree. We would do mostly backroad driving but there are occasions where we would be in the highway. Is rear-gearing the rear end is a possibility?

I will definitely read the articles and links. Thank you!!

We are going to try to get her going next week. She turns freely by hand but we still put Marvel's Mystery Oil in the spark plug sockets and crank case and let it sit for a few day to help. Will drain and refill before starting her. Any thoughts on re-gears the rear axle?

Happy Hokidays!!

Thank you all for the response. We are going for drivability and reliability. Sounds like reliability with any Stovebolt isn't an issue, other than typical mechanical failures we would experience with any engine of that age. Ideally we keep the 216 and 3 on the Tree. We would do mostly backroad driving but there are occasions where we would be in the highway. Is rear-gearing the rear end is a possibility?

I will definitely read the articles and links. Thank you!!

We are going to try to get her going next week. She turns freely by hand but we still put Marvel's Mystery Oil in the spark plug sockets and crank case and let it sit for a few day to help. Will drain and refill before starting her. Any thoughts on re-gears the rear axle?

Happy Hokidays!!

A Ring & Pinion conversion set from Chevs of the 40s to 3:55 ratio is $424.00, plus labor and then trying to find somebody to set it up. Think about it.

I spent a couple of hours typing some thoughts about prepping the 216 before you just fire it up. Then it all went away. In my opinion there are a few things you need to know so you won't damage it by trying to start an engine that is old and has been setting. I'll try to muster the spirit again tomorrow. Meanwhile there is this.
what Trannys fit a 216
I think these are all open driveline but it shows that using the pickup bell housing the later bolt pattern will bolt up. It would also suggest that the 3 speed pickup transmission up to mid '55 might work. They were closed driveline.

You will likely never find one of these OD units but it would provide the highway speeds with the stock gearing. Somewhere near 70 mph @ 2500 rpm.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/truckstell-overdrive-model-101-vs-103.783592/

The connections for these are far more complicated then the Borg warner OD on the open driveline trannys. There is a closed drive line OD designed for Model A Fords that might be adaptable.

Beater,
Why do you continue to give this guy false hope?

Sorry about snagging up your response. I am searching online to see what people suggest doing to prepare the engine to start for the first time. All advice is welcomed.

Larry, There is no such thing as false hope. These two are at the beginning of a project with a basically unmolested '40 Chevy. The slate is clean. There are many choices to be made to make it the best for the son's use. A great father son project, the thing car guy dad's lives are made of. They are not aware of all of the choices and are asking for help. I'm trying to point out the choices between a restoration and a 350-350-9"-Mustang II front clip. Before they tear into to they need a plan because every change will lead to others. The should know what is out there even if some of it is hard to find.

Here is some hope.
216 THREAD

There's some good info here in the links & videos. Take your time and be sure you are ready.

216 start up & rebuild

There are some things to know about 216s in particular and engines of this era in general. They began their lives in the time before detergent oil. This allowed sludge buildup over time. The sludge often clogged small oil passages like the one that feeds the rocker shaft. This was a big enough problem the after market oiling kets were often installed that bypass the inblock/head passages. You should check these. When detergent oil is used in engines with sludge buildup it can cause the sludge to break loose and clog what wasn't clogged.

The 216 has pressure to the main bearings. The rods are fed through a squirt system that aims a stream of oil to a cup on each rod cap as it rotates. It is a good and dependable system if all is clean and in alignment. Bothe the rod & main bearings are poured babbitt not inserts. They can be converted to full pressure inserts but it can be expensive. One good thing in that new and properly rebuilt 216s had shims in the rod bearings. I don't know about the mains. These shims were there to allow the bearings to be tightened as natural were made then loosen. If you are lucky yours may still have some shims left.

More reading: More reading

Sorry, that startup video was more of a what not to do half ass attempt. Here is some better info. The more prep you can do the better your chances of success without doing any harm. Remember you need fuel. compression, & spark at the right time to make it run.
LINK

Is there anyone in your area that is truly knowledgable that could help?

Great write ups! Thank you. We will be out there tomorrow morning and will let you know the results. Wish us luck!!

Good luck. I'm betting it will start.
Easy preliminary spark check. You can first look for spark like the guy in the video did. If you have a decent spark go for it. If no spark: With the battery & all electrical connections clean & tight pull the distributer cap. Turn the engine till the points are closed. Turn on the ignition and with a screwdriver push the points open. There should be a spark at the points. If there is no spark at the points it is a wire problem between the switch and the points. If there is spark at the points but not at the plug wire check another plug wire. If nothing again check the cap, rotor, plug wires & coil wires. Test the coil for resistance with a multi meter. Test the condenser. You'll have the read more online to do those.

I wish we were that lucky. We came prepared with new distributor w/ new cap rotor condenser points, new plugs, new wires, fluids, coil, battery, ground and positive cables, etc. This is what we uncovered. See photos below. Remarkably the engine has clean oil in the pan which we are amazed at. The coolant was nice and green too. Not sure where this is going to lead us or the next step. A little disappointed but not going to stop us!!! Any thoughts?

Here are some photos

That is some serious rust. I'm betting it won't turn over. Rockers & lifters look to be stuck. The cylinders are probably about the same. It will probably take a full tear down to clean it. I think I'd start looking for a 235.

Ugh!! If I can't use the original 3 on the tree and driveshaft with a 235 then I probably should just use the nice running 250 I have. Unless someone wants to trade their 216 or 235 for my 250? Still bummed out about the rust, especially since the rest of the car is decent. Going to re-read a bunch of the articles / links above as my brain is still spinning.

Rust is semi easy to deal with, Pitting is the better issue, I'd say pull it apart soak in a citrus bath to clean the rust or you can blast some of it with walnut shell.

Oh boy, that is serious rust. It almost looks like the engine was rebuilt and put together , then never ran to coat everything with oil. Then rusted . Finding a decent 235 should be relatively cheap and easy to change out.

We may have located a good running 216 and bellhousing out of an early 50's truck. Anyone know what a decent running 216 goes for these day...fully equipped with the generator, manifolds, carburetor, coil, distributor, etc?

Its really hard to place a value on something like that because over on the Stovebolt forum there are many people every month that give 216's and 235's away for free in their Freebie Section. So the percieved value of them doesn't appear to be very high because of that. If you were able to see and hear it running, that could help for sure compared to an engine under a tarp or piece of plastic in a shed that's been there an unknown amount of time.....Good luck!

X2........You have to look at it as an option. A real sound running 216 is valuable to you only if that is where you want the project to go and it is truly a runner. How much depends on you based on how much your other options will cost. Like I said here before my friends family sent at least a dozen 216 & 235 engines and tons of parts to the scrapper a few months ago. They could not even give them away. At the same time there were guys in the area looking for them. Most important nail your deal down to the condition with a liberal time frame to get it running or better yet have him run it for you. That will give it value. To you a good runner might be worth up to $500. A good one! One you won't have to fix.