Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Oil, flat tappet cam failures, and what I learned

In the building process on my GMC 302 project, I was hearing and seeing bits and pieces of flat tappet cam failure. I was very concerned about this and set to trying to identify the cause. There was a lot of conjecture about the source, but often fingers pointed to reformulations of engine oils and the reduction of ZDDP, a lubricant.

You roller bearing guys don't have to worry about this, but us flat tappet guys should pay attention.

First, understand that my motor is not high performance engine. I built this engine for longevity and high rpm continuous operation. I am planning to make a Boston-San Francisco Cannonball run next year to commemorate Cannonball Baker's famous non-stop transcontinental run in a 1927 GMC 2.5 ton truck. To do that, I wanted to build a motor that looked stock, but had more balls than the original 228, but more importantly I was attentive to balancing the motor very carefully at each step of the build. My motor is a military 302, but I went to great pain to "convert it" to a civilian appearing model all the way down to cutting the fuel pump boss and mounting a mechanical fuel pump. I am running stock spring pressures because this engine will not wind out much past 3500 rpm, but may run for days at 3200 rpm. So my valve spring pressures are within original spec because float is not an issue for me in this engine at the rpm's I'm planning on running it.

I digress. Flat tappet cam failures.

What I found was that engine oils have been reformulated to reduce certain bi-metallic additives such as ZDDP because they were finding their way into the insides of catalytic converters and causing pre-mature converter failure by placquing up the insides with metal salts rendering them ineffective.

After a lot of reading, I stumbled into an article in Hot Rod Magazine that beautifully summarizes this issue (as I see it) and correctly identifies the source and offer an alternative that I had already settled on but was pleased to see it confirmed in the article.

I am a Castrol GTX man. Have been for as long as I've been serious about engines. You'd have to pry that quart from my dead hands if you wanted it prior to my research, but now, I've "upgraded" to Castrol Tection, which is formulated for diesel engines. Since there are no catalytic converters in diesels (real trucks don't have spark plugs!) it's not an issue and the diesel engine oils have copius quantities of the goodies that croak catalytic converters and add decades of life to vintage flat tappet motors.

I copied the article from HotRod and have it stored on my oldgmctrucks.com server and you guys might find this information helpful if you don't know it already.

http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/photos/FlatTappetCamTech.htm

Hope you find this information helpful. This is only an issue for us flat tappet engines. Good argument for roller bearings!

Yeah weve been running "Rotella T" in new engines for break in as long as I can remember. My old V8 ran it on a daily basis too.

Dear Rob;

We had lifter failure on the Hot Rod six(s) (Chevy & GMC) in the 50s, long before this oil controversy.

Also I have used Dello (a diesel/commercial) oil for decades with better than 'normal' results.

Anyway; the major cause of lifter failure was the double springs needed for 'high' RPM use back then. We used to check the lifters on a regular basis, usually when the valves needed adjustment etc. Replacing the bad ones solved the problem and the cam.

Today with the "new oils" It's worse, is all. The public has been sold on multi-grade which is NG for the early/Hot Rod engines.

The secret is to use the Howard springs (single) which are strong enough to NOT 'float' the valves, but doesn't put excessive pressures on the lifter/cam interaction(s). This along with Dello or the Castrol product you mentioned "does the trick".

Thanks for doing the research here as this has been an uneeded debate on our BB for quite some time.

Good luck to all.

PS: Patrick's has these springs.

Besides the attached article and your info sharing,I'd like to point out to members that your web site www.oldgmctrucks.com has a wealth of GMC info.

one place i do machine work for says that the rotella is being reformulated for next year. so better read the bottle when you buy it.

Thanks for bringing that to the forum Rob.
A few of the cam manufacturers are also dealing with this problem by offering oils with the correct additive package or a supplement additive for the newly reformulated oils on the market. Good advice for anyone is to use the cam makers tech line or website BEFORE firing up that new bump stick for the first time.

Too bad we didn't have a hint the zinc packages were going to be removed from oils, we could have bought a couple of cases of 10W30 just for break ins. If Rotella and other diesel service oils will lose it soon then a couple of cases of 15W40 should be on the shopping list before it's too late.

I didn't clearly state that my shift away from gasoline engine oils to diesel engine oils is not just for break-in; I'm running diesel oils in ALL my vintage GMC motors.

I sure do appreciate the warm welcome here and look forward to getting a better edumacation. While I've been in and out of the club for more than 10 years, my interest has peaked again in II.

I agree with John about valve springs. My 250 Chevy is set up with 55 lbs. on the seats and will rev to 6000 rpms easy, just about the time the hydro lifters start giving up !!! As a retired Shell Employee with a direct line to R/D I will find out if there are any changes in Rotella in the works.... SCRAP

All are correct on the changed formulation. I run my racing jimmys on diesel based oil since I run flat tappets. On assembly make sure you always use a good assembly lube on cam/lifter combos. I use Prolong.

With the formulation change in the oils I would also reccommend the use of the GM assembly oil "EOS". Add one quart if you are using a large pan and 1/2 qt for a 6 qt pan.

Using the spring pressure for your RPM application can also help eliminate problem down the road..Good Luck...#35

Yeah I heard along with the reformulation of Rotella they are doing it because there is talk of adding CATS to Big Diesel Trucks like 18 Wheelers.

For years just about every heavyline engine company has been experimenting with what they call "part traps".The premise is that any exhaust particulate that is 10 microns and under will stay in the lungs and is a dangerous pollutant. Some of these part traps are the size of a 100gal fuel tank. They might as well be called gaint catalytic converters.(they work a little differently) The first ones were total failures(they plugged up) but that has not stopped them from trying other designs. Anyway,after reading OldCarKook's post about additives being removed because they were damaging catalytic converters, the notion that they will reformulate my Dello might not be so far fetched.

I don't want to hijack this thread but Diesel D's concerns becomes reality 1/1/07 for those not aware of it.

While there is no reformulations on engine oils on the horizon that I have heard of, the new rules go into effect 1/1 and will put particulate traps on all diesel engines made after Jan 1. Road tractors may be so impacted as to lose one fuel tank just to host the new apparatus. My CAT dealer has been telling me some real scarey stuff about what's coming.

I ordered a new pickup (I pull a lot and run a Duramax) for delivery in November to get in under the wire. After 1/1, there's a whole new world of headaches coming for anyone buying a new diesel.

Adding weight and robbing Hp is never a good thing.

R;

This in not a surprise as the "big three" are losing money again via government interference. Hello; Henry Ford showed the whole world how to build cars, before the Titanic sank.

Our country's strenght lies in It's ability to move products/people/supplies and the more difficult/expensive they make it the weaker we become.

In California this November (election) there are 14 billion (that's right BILLION) in new taxes/regulations being proposed. Four billion in a (Prop 87) "oil tax" to help us??????

Hopefully the voters here will see through this new "money scam".......

If the "particle traps" don't function like the "cat" why would Dello need reformulation??

This is nuts. A diesel engine is '100%' unlike gas engines which require 2 revolutions for the firing cycle (50%).

This "enviromental extreamism" has gone far enough and the public is fed up. All of our cross country trucks/railroads use diesel engines for power and burn clean when operating at their pre-designed speed.

Messing with them is just another method of crippling us.

11. Is Shell Rotella® T motor oil going to have less zinc in 2007?

Yes. The API CJ-4 (next generation) Shell ROTELLA® T multigrade motor oil will have a slightly lower level of zinc than the current API API CI-4 PLUS Shell ROTELLA® T. Zinc is typically used as part of the anti-wear system within the oil. However, less zinc in API CJ-4 oils compared with API CI-4 PLUS oils does not mean increased wear. In fact, wear protection is one of the key areas where the API CJ-4 category provides improvements over API CI-4 PLUS. (Other areas include; oxidation stability and soot control). The new API CJ-4 Shell ROTELLA® T multigrade motor oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories.

at this address......


http://www.rotella.com/press/article_66.html SCRAP

Man the plot continues to thicken ungh?

Thanks for the update Scrap.

John, 2 stroke Diesels are no longer being made for over the road use or many other uses for that matter. The biggest builder was GM in their Detroit Diesel line, 53, 71, and 92 series engines which they replaced with the 60 Series 4 strokes back in the early 90's. Other than the Detroit 2 strokes from which we originated our beloved GMC blowers every other Diesel engine builder made only 4 strokes. Way back when Saab cars were 2 stroke gas engines. The very short story is a 2 stroke anything is not easy to make comply with even minimal emission standards so they have been dropped.

There are even emission standards in place now for utility engines like lawn mowers. Know anyone who has bought a new 2 stroke Lawn Boy mower lately?

I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it either.

The part traps use heat,(some have tried electric heating coils!) and oxygen just like catalytic converters but they are trying to filter out PM10's where as CATS are creating a reaction to get rid of NOX and hydrocarbons, so the metals inside are different.But both had trouble with clogging, and they changed automotive oil, so it sounds like heavyline oil(Dello,Rotella ect.) is next. I don't want to bring politics to the board but I have been a heavyline tech. for 13 years and I agree with John.M, the goverment is doing more harm than good on this "particular" lol issue.

Dear Mike;

I know, Its "beyond stupid" the BS they can come up with.

A few years back there was a big controversy here over lighting home (outdoor) cooking systems, commonly know as the barbecue or BBQ.

It seems that "BBQ starter" (lighting fluid) is akin to kerosene/diesel fuel AKA 'coal oil' in the old days, causes a black smoke when the fire is first lit.

OMG.

This caused regulations creating a device that mixed the birquets and old newspapers for lighting puropses.

This was greatly accepted my most men as they could drink an extra beer during the fire starting process.

The joke around was: to not to get caught with lighter fluid as it was now a "controled substance."

LOL.

After a while the regulations were voided and BBQs went "back to normal".....

The moral of the story being: that breauacrats will do almost anything, to justify their existance.

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.
Ernest Benn ............SCRAP

We've run Rotella in all our farm equipment, both gas and diesel mainly out of the fact it was easy........We had it in bulk and it was there. Its treated us well........

I hate to throw this into the mix but if you have a late model diesel pickup with the lectric nozzles and are not running a fuel additive you may also be looking for trouble down the road. I have a 04 6.0 Ford (never had a problem) and it's never had a tank of fuel without an additive for lubricity. The fuel also continously gets reformulated. This is not the forum for this but sharing makes us all smarter...Good Luck

Jimmy Six.........If they started pushing Bio-Diesel harder you wouldn't need to worry, it lubes better than the low sulfer crap we get here on the east coast. I work part time for a guy that has a small fleet of Pete's and Volvo's with 60 series Detroits, N14/ISX Cummins, and 3406/C15 Cats........And some of the junk fuel those guys get at truck stops I wouldn't use to start fire to a brush pile. They get 55 gal drums of additive now and are running it year around.........CRS set in and I forget the name of it, but it is red in color.

Sure seems like we change fuel filters more outside of the service schedule than we used to with all the junk fuel anymore. If you haven't already I'd look into FASS's filtering systems for your pickup, If I spent mucho denaro on a diesel pickup, I'd want one of their setups on it.

Thanks. I have changed fuel both filters at 12K mile and am getting ready again as I'm approaching 24K on the truck. I don't like advertising but I use Standyne because they are in the diesel fuel pump business.

Diesel Clean and Lucas make excellant products...

I personally would not use anything red because red diesel here is for off road only and I would hate to be caught with anything close....

I have read about a few additional filters but since Ford was smart enough to put on 2. I'll go with that....

Ford took the International 265 and hopped it to 325. It's the guys who hop them up more and killing them are making it hard on the rest of us at the dealerships..Maybe I'm lucky or drive it smart...Good Luck.

There was a big "snake oil" test of coatings and oil additives in the leading german vintage car magacine a while ago.

The did a test with several identical rebuild vintage (Ford - there goes the 4 letter word ) engines on teststands and simulated 65 000 miles of normal driving, cold starting and any kind of abuse you can think of.

The coatings performed pretty good for a while, but they wear down after max. 20 000 miles.

There where only two products that showed significant milage/performance plus and protection against wear.

the winner was Mathy

Here in southern Germany we used this stuff since years. It is a well known "liqid speed equipment" for performance engines and hevay duty stuff.

It also has an intresting history:

It was invented by Otto Mathé, the celebrated sports hero in Austria and Southern Germany, he was a living legend, being one of the most successful racers before and after the war.

In 1934, during a dirt-track race, Otto Mathé crashed his motor cycle, leaving his right arm lame for the rest of his life. But a fellow like Otto Mathé, called the "Tyrolian Daredevil" could not easily be stopped from racing. First on a sidecar outfit, altered to his demands, later on a great number of sports and racing cars. Wherever Otto Mathé was at the start line in one of his cars like CISITALIA, FIAT Ballila, Lancia Aprilia, Porsche 356 or even in one of his home-made cars (one of them he used to call the "Tin Can"), in most cases the winner was Otto Mathé. In 1952 he took victory in 20 (!) road races. In 1953 he was third on the famous NÜRBURGRING race course behind Pininfarina and Juan Manuel Fangio. It was only the second Grand Prix Mathé competed in.

His numereous performances (and wins of course) at speedway events and ice races have become legends. Especially so, when he raced on the ice surface of the Zeller See (Austria). The steel spikes of appr. 10 mm length his racer (called "Rags Afly") was equipped with gave a most spectacular sight when he went round corners!

He was also an graduated engineer and took special interest in dismantling engines, making improvements, putting them together again and making experiments. Just before he died in 1995, he worked on methods to considerably reduce fuel consumption. He was convinced that the lubricating abilities of motor oils were overestimated for many years, so he developed a formula for oil additives which was unique in his time and still is. Even in the early sixties Mathé was able to race his Porsche 356 (1500 cc) for more than 100 000 km without oil change, using his own additives. Of course regular change of the oil filter and replenishment of the oil consumed was executed.

Oils on sale consist of short molecule chains. MATHY will connect the oil molecules to nearly endless chains, thus multiplying their tensile strength. The result is a lubricating film that is close to indestructible and with the greatest reliability adheres to metal engine parts.

We are using this stuff down here in Bavaria for a loooong time because we are close to the austrian border where Otto Mathe had his shop.

My grandpa who run a "EES Garage" (part of AAFES where the GIs used to get parts and maintainence for ther private vehicles) since the early 60es here in Augsburg already used this additive and swears by it til today. All our family vehicles are treaded with Mathy.

The main benefit is that friction is reduced to almost nill. So on cold starts - where most engine wear is - it does a good job because it protects the rings and cylinder walls. That also means never use it on a rebuild engine, it will never runn in the rings.

Here are 2 films that show how it works.
http://www.mathy.de/media/mathyfilm_1.mov
http://www.mathy.de/media/mathyfilm_2.mov

First test is done with premium synthetic oil adding 70 pound wight to the handle destroys the test roll.

Second film shows the same test with the 20% Mathy Additive they add up to 600(!) pounds to the handle without destroing the test roll.

I saw the test in real live at the shop in Austria and worked the handle by my selfe. I can tell you it works.

I think this will be a great solution for the reformulated oil/Lifters/cam problem.

In the 41 Chevy I use a special single grade (sae 30) MATHY because of the single grade oil I have in the 235.
They have it on a extra website Mathy Classic

The additive is rather expensive (around $52 1 liter and you need 10% of your oil volume) so you better make sure your engine don`t leak or burns to much oil.

From my personal and family experience I got (all our cars have more than 180 000 miles on the odometer bevore thy go to the boneyard) I think it is worth any penny and swear by it. But when it comes to oil additives it is always an almost religos discussion.

...and no I don`t get or make money for this,
I don`t sell it and they only have a germany language Website.

http://www.mathy.de/
http://www.mathy.de/index.php?page=an_oldtimer

I don`t know if it is aviable in the US. A quick n´dirty Goggle search brought no results.

Frank

frank,

always enjoy reading your messages. you have a cool site, too. i was stationed in regensburg in '59-'61 and enjoyed bavaria very much. i had a '51 ford taunus and drove it all over. it wasn't fast, but it never failed me. i paid $50 for it, drove it 2 years and sold it for $100! never spent a penny in maintenance, either.

just thought i'd give you a chris gott!

Thanks for the information. We have had 3 cam failures here in our Mopar club in the last 3 months. Scratching our heads and rears trying to figure out why!?? Thanks again.