Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Idea on the "lump port" design

Ok All,
I am not a race engineer but I have been facinated with the lump port design.

What I am thinking of is if it is possible to machine a bolt in spacer between the intake and head that acts like a lump port. Thus giving an end user a direct bolt in with none or minimal machining of the head for the L6. Forgive the drawing but I am not a CAD guy.
Thoughts?



John C.
Pensacola FL
65 two door wagon project

John
One of the older tricks was to add a lump or plate just to the intake Just before the head and they have said that did work But Closer to the Valves Showed much more improvement in Flow. Something else that was tried was a Port divider But still that to needed to remove the stock head bolt boss. hope this helps }[oooooo]

I just can't get in my head how this helps !! Wish I could see one in real life so maybe I could understand how it works. All my head work in the past was centered arouund the valve area and matching ports.I guess this flow bench stuff has realy found ways we never thought of..SCRAP

hello....ok here is a VERY BASIC concept on what the lump port does and how it works(interesting enough, not only does it help the Chevy Inline 6 head but there are V-8 heads out there that have learned this concept too....it just keeps coming....)....

ok, the air that is being drawn into the cylinder is basically hitting the back wall of the port and then turning 90 degrees and going down...welllll, so does that sound like a good flow-straight to back wall then ??? down?,,,well no that is NOT good....what the lump does is add a "short" turn (radius as it is referred to) so the air kind off goes up and then down into cylinder...
it's like this.... when you are driving and a 90 degree turn comes up and the road actually has this very BAD turn you have to slow down ALOT to make turn....wellll, if there is a CURVE that smooths out this transition you do NOT have to slow down as much....again, this is a basic explanation,yet good way to explain the Lump port design...ask more questions- once you have a lump port head, you will wonder why you never had 1 and why it took you sooooo long to actually find a BIG boost in these heads and engines with these heads-of course $$$$ and priorities may not allow this.....

John,

The only question I have (so far) is where (or what) would the spacer bolt to?

-magic mike-

seems it acts as lump-see dark area of drawing? from top to bottom-raises port floor as lump does since it is then lump in his design.......

I see what you're trying to do and I like it. I could see it being hard to get the same level of performance as the full lump port, especially with the bolt still in place but for a bolt on upgrade I bet it wouldn't be that bad at all!

Hey all,
Sorry for the crudeness of the drawing. Not an engineer so I will try another.

What I am trying to describle is a bolt on lump port that mounts like an intake gasket (Lump gasket). It could also be milled (created) so it extends into the intake manifold to smooth the transition that LeeLites described. Sort of a ramp. But it may help the transition to the valve.

The red indicates the lump gasket.
I know its probably not exactly like the head. But hey, its my first L6 six Chevy.

I was even thinking of sheet steel(16 gauge?). By cutting it to the intake gasket shape. But on the ports only cut three sides. Bend it in with an angle, like a tounge.


Removing of the intake boss is another problem. I am aiming for a bolt-in idea that basic meat heads like myself can do. I can probably do alot more damage than good with a grinder. Is it easier to remove the boss (still learning whats what?) than the hole tapping for the lump? If I understand the rest of the bolt in lump work there's a good chance that a water passage can be struck.

By the way, if anyone makes one, make me one too please.

John C.

John,

This is a good concept, but you need to remember that the floor of the intake chamber is opens up as it gets further from the intake port opening to the manifold.

When you install a PES lump, you have to turn it sideways at an angle to get it in because the portion that creates the radius around the intake valves is considerably bigger than the portion that sticks out of the intake port.

As such, I am not too sure that this concept is practical as it would be almost impossible to install.

I'd been picturing the thing being made out of billet or something (didn't think I guess) and never thought sheetmetal. Not a bad idea at all.

Darn I wish I was at home right now. I have AutoCAD and Inventor there, I could make us up some interesting models pretty fast.

Wow, this gets rougher by the paragraph.

Thanks Ken for the input. I have only seen pictures of the lumps.
Ok, how about seperating the "tounge" from the "gasket" piece. Shaping the tounge like a shoe horn or upside down spoon. Wider at the intake valve. Narrow at the port inlet. Bending the end, at the inlet, 90 degrees to stick out of the head. The part that sticks out and lays flat against the heads intake surface with a sort of puzzle piece lock into the "gasket" piece.
Next picture:

Just as another thought on the material to make this out of. What about aluminum or copper sheet metal? Easy to shape. Does it get to hot in the head risking melting? I have been checking out getting a sandbag and hammer for other body work.

Hammers going to need to be real tiny!

John C.

Does anybody think there would be significant advantage to this setup on a head with the center boss intact? I'm not in a place right now to want to remove it so I might draw something up for that situation. My idea of significant is 10 HP or so.

Ok maybe many do not know that I have started putting up photos on my web site.check the head lump porting link.
http://www.T6Racing.org I will get more pictures up on monday i hope showing the Lump In the head from a down veiw and from the intake side. I still have to finish one with a Side veiw But i will get that posted as well.In the mean time you will also see The Lump shape as it sits NOT Installed Hope this Helps with the Pictures (trying to see whats what)}[oooooo]

wellll........................................................................... i would highly suggest find another head, remove headbolt boss and install PES Bolt-In plates-then swap out in a day... I know you dont want much work, but trust me(have conducted lots of head testing with these plates), you will do alot of work on something that may do VERY little...Dont get me wrong -you have a great!!!!! idea, but you can accomplish much better results using what is avaiable---what I mean about finding another head is work on that head then swap 1 day....if interested i could help you by just installing these plates for you and you can have other work done -contact me by email if I can help....

Lee

hello...Larry, I have always used epoxy with my heads-here is key!!!!! you can shape port and use epoxy around plates and extend center of "point" on plate -this is KEY to getting bigger intake flow #'s- and yes it works and STAYS put-my 292 daily driver Chevy 3/4 ton has has a head like this for over 3 yrs now with no problem with expoy-.....when you flow a head only with plate- then use expoxy to contour port, you add manyyyy cfm's with expoxy .....

Lee

Yes Lee
I know Epoxy does need to be Used to get the Full Use/Flow from the Lumps. And I know guys who also Use Lead But thats Not to healthy and Takes alot more time. OH and when are you going to send me the Crank Photos? So we can get them Posted

I just started getting that Page going a few months ago and just haven't had a chance to get more of the Photos Up loaded.

John you have a good idea for what your wanting to do. But one thing is you would have a hard time matching the valve pocket area with the Boss in the way. Unless you did something else to get That shape to the short turn radius at the Valve pocket. Even with the Bosses removed The Bolt in lumps have to go into the Port on a angle to get it into the Intake opening. But either way your on the right track.
}[oooooo]

Hey all,
Just playing with ideas to fill the void at work while doing the non technical detail garbage. Here for the next twentyfour hours remaking an ice rink.

Larry your page was the insperation. Those cut aways pictures are excellent. By all means, everyone have a look, its great stuff.

Currently, i am just thinking the way Greg is. Not ready yet to cut away the boss. Too much other work on the wagon at the moment.

Before I left for work I had another look at the head I have. Even if the tounge coming into the head did not fill the intake port from one side to the other. Would the general shape of an inverted bend help flow more than stock?

This leeds me to think if the intake space has a wing or foil to help direct the flow. Not necesarly bolted in, but if made right, wedged into the port.

Back on the idea of the tounge sticking into the intake. If the bolt boss is removed. Perhapse the tounge that bends in can go over where the head bolt protrudes through the floor of the intake. This could possibly eleminate the need to counter sink the head bolt. Making the machine work a little easier.

I drive my wife and co-workers nuts. Even if the best way to do it has been proven over and over. Its just plain fun to keep kicking stuff over that you love. Sometimes, you get luckey.

John
First off I want to say Thank you for the complimentary words about the site.
Yes you can wing tip the Boss. That was something that was done many yrs ago and some still ?? do it today.?? When not wanting to do the lump port just yet. If you have a ruff enough surface you can use the epoxy to face off the boss to a wing tip.Or if you can tack small lumps to the face of the boss to help Hold the epoxy. You can drill it But It HAS to be VERY shallow as to NOT go all the way threw the Boss.And used a bottoming tap then install small screws The epoxy could then hold onto that to shape the wing.And Shape it so that it comes clear to the Face of the head. I have here somewhere a photo Templet of the right size Of a wing the was used in place of the boss Yrs ago. I also have a set Made from Alum But never installed them. Because I never had time to take the head back off Nore did i have a spare at the time I had made them. Then I started to learn abot the lump port which turned out to be much better. Then I bought a set about 3yrs ago and still not wanting to take the head off Mainly because i never got the time to. So then i started to learn how to port the heads and flow them. All this with out having a teacher persay but buy asking Question and cutting up many heads USED cracked heads. Started to see some of the issues many have told me about which is Core shift in the casting and I got to see first hand. In some cases just going to a over sized valve you can hit water. If the seat are cut in to deep. I had someone not to long ago Email me say His machine shop Hit water on all the exhaust valves They were installing hardened seat.And They told him all L6s have that Problem. Wrong I told him to asked if they did a Plunge cut when they did this. If so that was There fault Not the head/s .A few of the heads I have gotten over the years I have seen How close some have come to Hitting water because of that type of cutting by going to deep. You can't do a plunge cut inside the seat area It has to be a tapper type cut So that You don't through the water jacket. And it also makes it much easier to blend the bowl to the seat itself. If the bowl area Is blended right You really should be able to tell where the seat ends and the bowl begains.

Now to answer another question you had about not doing a counter sink. If you look back at photo #1 you can see where some of the boss was still in the head at the floor as well as the top of the head. Before I started playing around with the heads myself(before i had the machine to it myself) I had a machine shop remove the boss for me. and that is what was left over of the boss and that is how i bolted the head down. This can Be left there IF One wanted to take the added/extra time to trim out the bottom of the lumps. So that it would sit Flush to the intake floor.Not everyone does the counter sink like i did, some Used a tapper seated bolt. The Bolt head then sits Inside the Lump. One of the things I did during some of my testings. Was I used Clay to fill the center bolt whole to see what difference it maded. Which Was Nothing Once a whole is filled with Air it's full and everything else Passes right over as if it was Prefilled with what ever.I even asked clyde one time if the Epoxy was needed He told me NO. BUT in a manner of speaking it does at the back Inside the intake Port it Does so that the Lump Is Blended clear to the back of the Port.This is really the Best way to get The maxaim air flow In a all Out race motor not necessarily for a daily driver. One could save a few bucks there?

And to answer the other Question abouta inverted bend Help yes maybe it could. Like I said in a earlier post Some used to add a plate/lump just to the intake manifold itself and to have said it worked. That i honestly don't know I never tried it. Another thing when I got my first set of Lumps I made plates to go into the intake and did a blend on them. So the intake face and the Head face matched. and I would have used PES intake gasket. Because when you Use PES intake You need their Gasket Because The intake matchs their gasket & Lumps as long as You don't tapper/shape them to the port floor on the intake side. But I also figured If i'm going to shape a plate to put in the intake Why not just shape the Lump itself and be done with it. (saves time and money)
hope this helps }[oooooo]

hello..good comments Larry...I will add this...concerning adding epoxy with plates and how it can affect increase in cfm's- it depends on what you have done to port(ie, enlarging it)... with the flow testing I have done with Clyde at his company, PES, he showed me yrs ago when i 1st started using his plates, that by not adding epoxy with plate didnt add anymore cfm's...HOWever, if you start enlarging port and modifying more and more-ADDING epoxy DOES make a difference.....until you actually take time and see it yourself, it may seem unlikely it will add.... I have spent many hours myself with Clyde and on other testing flow benches and once you start you will find out what can be done and the stregnth of epoxy that MANY use now is exceptional.....lots of fun can be had-i would highly recommend using PES plates before doing anything else-the procedure is time consuming yet bascially simple and the increase in performance and how your engine runs will be shocking to you-forget the cams or big carbs or chrome stuff-here is what I want to share -you will be VERY amazed-EVEN with stock valves....have fun and keep creating....

John C- I've tried the tounge or thin sheet metal lump. It didnt work! Because The air passing thought the port would lift the sheet metal peice just a little. After a period of time the sheet metal tore at the base of the lump and got sucked in the motor. NOT A GOOD SOUND! Stay with the bolt in lumps they are worth years of trouble free service.

Steven

John,

Check out this link . . . you might find yourself open to patent litigation if you keep dinking around with sheet metal in the intake port!

http://www.chromebillet.com/tweb04/topnav/import.htm

Thanks all for the feedback.

Ken, not looking to manufacture anything, so that sould keep me out of the courts. Neat site though.
The tech data is way above anything that I could generate.

Steven, sorry to hear the suckage problem. Did it do alot of damage?

This does make me wonder about different wing or foil shapes in the intake. Different Keal (?) shapes (those pesky things under mono hull sail boats) helps sail boats slice though the water. Why not help the flow air/fuel in the heads?

"Because The air passing thought the port would lift the sheet metal peice just a little."

Design Factor: Thick enough material to resist venturi effect of high velocity air.

It is surprising to me that they were able to patent the concept. I bet it would not be too hard to find some prior "art" from the 40's or 50's to invalidate the patent.