Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance distributorless ignition systems

To all:

Does anyone knows if exists a distributorless ignition system for 250 Chevy?
Something like FORD Edis to use with MegaSquirt.

Can I use this FORD EDIS system in a Chevy or it has a diferent firing order?

Is there any specific reason you're after getting rid of the distributor or do you want a system that works with Megasquirt? GM HEI ignitions will work with MS (if that's the question)

I think Leo is doing something like that with HiS Turboed 292.I beleive it was in the works the last I had spoke with him. I will try and look into this matter. }[oooooo]

Thanks Greg.

I just think EDIS system is intresting because eliminates distributor, its gear and a lot of stuff. One weight less to overload the cam.
The only doubt is how can the oil pump still working without the distributor shaft?

Does the GM HEI ignition works fine with the MS 2? Can we control the timing?

You will need to modify a distributer to turn the oil pump. Basically machine off the upper part and add a bushing to keep the top of the shaft supported. Shorten the shaft and then come up with a way to seal the top of it. A clamp on breather might even be enough to take care of it?
If you cut the shaft shorter than the stub of the housing you can weld the hole in the top of the housing shut. The pain would be when you install it to be able to turn the shaft so it engages the oil pump drive. Even that isn't too bad as you can wrench the engine over until it drops into place.

Mike

Electromotive was making a distributor-less system at one point. I'm not sure if they are still around. I will have to do some searching.

"Does the GM HEI ignition works fine with the MS 2? Can we control the timing? "

Yes. The MS 2 is fully compadible with GM HEI ignition. You upgrade to a 7-pin HEI module (easy according to the MS people) and then you have full timing control from the MS unit. I've been looking over how to do this for a few months now and the second I can get an MS 2 I intend to convert my timing control.

Greg

On which engine do you use the MS 2? With how many throtlles and injectors?
Where can I buy a HEI ig for 250?

I don't have my MS installed yet. I've built it, had it running on the bench both with the stimulator and the various sensors but I haven't got it on the car. I'm currently (since last monday) machining the intake I'm going to use for the injectors. I really didn't like the flow capacity of the stock intake (just looking at it) so I've been making an intake from scratch. This has taken me a while and will take me a while still.

FYI the MS 2 upgrade isn't generally available yet, only a few people have it for testing. It's supposed to be almost any time now. It's pretty likely that I'll have the spark control in place long before I have the fuel control.

Would it be useful to have a look at my plans? I can post pics on here of what I'm currently making.

Greg

In which engine you´ll use it?
My plan is use in my Chevy 250 with 3 70 mm throtlles and 6 injectors. The intake will be alum forged 45 degrees from the intake port.
From who did you buy the kit? Does it comes with the MAP sensor onboard?

When I measure the throttles I have I get a touch over 2 inches, coming in just over 50mm. I'm using two of these throttle bodies. They're taken off of 2.8L engines with EFI. These engines were rated in the 135 HP range if I remember correct (maybe less). With two that gives me enough airflow for 270 HP which is much more than I plan on making without boost. I'm still worried that the throttles may be too bit to use, at least without progressive linkages. I can't imagine 3 70mm throttles. Are you sure they aren't too big?

I'm putting this onto a 230. I intend to eventually get a 292 or rebuild the 230 with my 250 crank, not sure when either will happen. I just keep it in mind for when I have more potential to feed with this intake.

Your intake, did you mean to say it would be forged? Typo? I've never heard of a forged intake.

How do you intend to make your intake? I'm having trouble coming up with a slick design that both meets the weird port shape (with radii) and has injectors mounted. Not to mention the weird mounting patterns for the L6 intakes. The thing I ended up deciding on was machining the thing from mild steel. I have 3 blocks that are machined out. They flow the intake from rectangular to oval/round for runners while supporting injectors, bolt surfaces and fuel rail hold downs. Then these bolt to tubing for the runners and the plenum and such.

Yes, the MS comes with the MAP sensor on board. The one sold with the kits now is good until ~21 lbs of boost right out of the box. (I have this one). Just go on www.megasquirt.info and there's everything you need there (including purchasing). There's complete units on ebay as well if you don't want to build and test it yourself.



That's a small view of my computer model of what I'm building.

Greg
Congrats! This seems to be a good project!
My idea is something like this, on the photo below, but with 3 throtlles instead six. You know? 45 degrees from the intake port. With the gravity doing its job!



I don´t think that 3 70 mm throtlles is a lot. First of all burn alcohol, need more air than gasoline. The photo´s engine has 300 bhp and has 6 45 mm throtlles. I think I´m arround 280 bhp.
About the intake, i made a mistake. Sorry. I meant alum foundry, not forged.

The MS units for sell on ebay are so expensive. I´ve been looking for, but an assembled MS is about $250.00. This is a lot of money for me!

Do you buy the MS visor or you will use a computer to set it?

total flow area I calculated (in^2):
Greg 6.58
Sissels 26.30
seiscanecos74 17.90


Wow, I've got nothing in flow area compared to you and the Sissel engine. That is something to think about. Maybe I won't be worrying about those progressive linkages after all........

I see what you mean now about 45 degrees, I didn't quite get it at first. I love the look of it though on the Sissel engine and if you can do it.....go for it!

I know how things can be with money. I'm in college right now and I just can't justify much for the car that isn't on the road (can't afford insurance). I bought my MS kit (partial from the MS people, then the Digikey part) plus the stuff for the stimulator and I think I payed something like 180 or 190 total. And that's in Canadaian so it was more for me.

I'm planning on using a computer to setup the MS, I could see the usefulness in a viewer/programmer but can't justify the $$.

280 bhp? That is nice. I don't know what I have, my 230 will be stock until I get this intake on it. I'm hoping to pick up 20 hp or so from it, maybe more. I just don't know. Never built an intake before

Greg, That is a nice intake design. Have you thought about making the runners adjustable in length by attaching the manifold tubes to the injector bosses using sections of rubber hose? That way you could tune the thing for torque peaks at different RPMs. You may need additional support - like strut rods coming from the pan rail area. Good luck.

Greg

I agree with Frechtown Flyer about the support stuff.
This intake will be made by alum?? If not, you might need some support in you want total seal.
I don´t know the correct size but maybe if you reduce a little the intake runners it will be much easier to get this sealed.
In fact, here in Brasil, the early intake style was cast iron foundry and works good without huge seal problems. I don´t know its weight exactly, I just know that is much more heavier than the alum one and runs great.
Or maybe you can get the intake´s parts that goes in the head and weld the injectors in the intake runners. Maybe. This is just my opinion.

Can i get a MS 1 and turn it to MS 2 with the same main board?

That's a really interesting idea about the hosing for the intake runners. That's really something to think about, maybe i could make use of that. Thanks!

As for the supports, I was hoping to stay away from them. I might end up needing them though, this thing is going to be mild steel. I'm kinda regretting it now, the machining is harder and I'm not a machinest really. I'm getting frusterated too because I only have one or two hours a week to work on this at school, I'm just busy other times.

I thought about using part of the stock intake but the runners aren't all the same dimensions so I'm not certain they'd flow the same air. They're not identical on the top either so I thought it'd be harder. I can't weld that well either so I was hoping to rely on machining more. But I'm open to ideas.

Yes, the MS can be upgraded. MS 2 is just the upgraded basic MS. there's a lot to see on their site but it'll give you a good idea what they're capable of.

I'm open to any suggestions on design, I want this to be a good project. Plus I hope to post my designs online when I'm done so people can maybe gain something from what I've done.

Greg

P.S. Thanks for all the replys!

I'm pretty new at playing around with engines, my only actual experience is just reading about all this stuff.. The idea of using rubber hose as an intke runner is pretty neat, but if the engine sucks in alot of air wouldn'e the hose "cave in" on itself (like when you drink a very thick milksake through a straw).

I actually have also been researching EFI and distributorless ignitions for my 250..

I was going to overbore it, do headers and EFI (as soon as I get the money); but today I came across a 292 and am thinking about buying it and doing all this stuff to the 292 instead of my 250. I have to make sure the 292 will fit in my '78 NOVA. Any comments?

As for my EFI ideas, I was thinking of making individual runners using the flages cut off from an old 1barrel intake and attaching a proper length of exhaust tailpipe. I figure the three runners could be tuned at different lentghs so that the pressure wave caused by one intake valve closing will return in time while the siamesed valve is opening. I figure that the middle runner would be a different length from the two outer ones beacuse of the engines firing order..

I'm thinking of using three throttle bodies from 3.1L cavaliers, berretas, etc. these would go attatched to the ends of the "tailpipe runners". I will make a balance tube attatched to the three runners so I can put the MAP sensor.

For the distributorless ignition I'll use a GM 3800 V6 COIL PACK, I have to make sure I'll be able to fire them with the megasquirt 2 if not I'll have to wait for the ultramegasquirt (supposedly should be out by late 2005)

I want to use clifford shorty headers with flowtech "race readies" I'm thinking of adapting some big block heat rise valves so that I can uncap the race readies remotely.

What are your opinions?

6canecos, what would a nice ported head cost me over at brasil? would shipping to Puerto Rico be prohibitive?

Luis

Sorry but I really don´t know how much a ported head cost because all I had I did by myself. But a friend of mine does great port jobs but you must say what you want or need, like bigger valves and what kind of porting jobs. Than I can talk to him to see if he does and how it´ll cost.
About shipping I think is allowed. No problems. I just don´t know about the prices. But this is something that I can discover too.

Cheers

Seis Canecos 74

I'm not an expert by any means but I will throw in my opinion:

Buy the 292. YOu won't regret it. Even if you have to build a taller hood to make it fit.

Anyway that's my $.02. It aint' worth a dime .
BTW, displacement makes me