Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Epoxy lumps

I don't want to sound cheap (well maybe a little)

A lot of people talk about using epoxy to blend in the bolt on lumps.. I guess if you match the expansion rates of the head and the epoxy there would be no problem with it cracking..

How feasible would it be to make lumps completely out of epoxy? (remove bolt bosses, fill in with epoxy and then shape into a lump).

This is just a crazy idea, just want some input..

Hey Luis,

If I'm not mistaken, Sissels offers an epoxied lump head as well as a brazed one. You have to go into their Adobe Acrobat price list to find the listing. You got my curiosity up now, I'm gonna go back and look myself.

I've been using epoxies for cylinder an case mods for years on racing two stroke engines.

Can't say that it'd last forever but I've never seen a failure personally. No experience with an L6 head though . . . . YET !

'Crockett

hello...As Crockett stated, this epoxy works wonders-my daily driver work truck 292 has epoxy along with the PES lumps/plates-this head is almost 3 yrs old and no problems -what i have learned from many head specialists is this epoxy is a great invention....
On the heads I have worked on, I use both the PES lumps/plates and epoxy-this is part of trick to get a high flowing intake port-
There is an engine builder here in Nashville that uses a new high temp epoxy on exhaust ports- I have been monitoring this for a while-

I don't know if my question is completely clear, what I meant was to skip the bolt on lumps alltogether, fill in the area with epoxy and then shape the dried epoxy into a lump.

I just talked with Mike Kirby at Sissels last week and he does the lumps with epoxy and has a machine that shapes it.

Hey Luis,
aa-fuel is corrrect,In the Santucci book it actually shows a picture of this machine,It's a duplicating mill that "traces" a pattern and machines the part. These were precursers to modern CNC machines.

The challenge you up against with using epoxy only is duplicating your port profile to keep somewhere near matching flow charisteristics in each port by hand.This is why Sissel's uses a machine to profile their epoxied ports.

You will have to do one port to your satisfaction then make a series of templates and gauges to use to replicate your work in the other ports, this can be tricky and time consuming to do.This is why using a "lump" that is pre-made would give you more consistency. That is to say you already have a consistant shape to apply to each port and by using epoxy to blend them, your "hand" work is minor and the potential for differences is kept to a minimum. Consistency is the key to a successful port job on any engine so you don't end up with one cylinder actually working against the others.

The best epoxy I have used is Devcon, it's an industrial epoxy and a little pricey but it's stronger than most others. Marine-tex and of course J-B weld are easier to find and less expensive.

If you really want to be able to check your work from port-to-port there is another rubber like product out (sorry I don't remember the name) that you can coat the inside of the ports with. When it dries you can remove it from the port and have a "casting" that you can compare with those from the other ports and even take measurements on.

Hope this is helpful , sorry for the long post.


'Crockett

I'm not sure which Devcon Your Useing But the Devcon I bought (metal Patch&Fillcompound)isn't worth the crap. Never had this on a Motor But Had it in my Van Where I had Did a Blending on some lumps for Pictures for my web site and Just from the few months that the head peices sat in my Van That Stuff started to Flake Off JUST From the Heat In the Van.SO My 2cents On Devcon Is Find Something Else.
Now Onto The Full epoxy Lump One Of the Better ways to do this Is to put some small dixie cups in the Port and fill it in around the cups. Once it's dry and hardend up. You can take the cups out and start your Port work from there.Now as for the Lumps all being the same. From Epoxy made wouldn't be much different then that Of PES bolt in lumps.They Need to be Reshaped If you do not plan on useing their intake & head gasket.Or you Must make a peice to bolt into your head. Again they can very a little.
Now To toot my own horn One Mit say. My Bolt in Lumps Are all Matched and Fully Preshaped. To the Point all You will have to do Is Remove the Boss drill the head to be able to bolt them into the head. AND The next step IF You want to get the Maximum FLOW from the lumps is to finish Epxoy Blending the to the back of the Port.ALSO to get the maximum CFMs out of the heads, Their a few others things that do need to be addressed Like The Valve Boss. To either round/tapper it off More Or Remove it all together. But Removeing it Is not a good Idea For a Daily Driver Because (Now Think about This) Once you remove the Valve guide boss from the Inside of the head, AND Trim the Tops for PC seals and the Bigger heavier valve spring,You Now have made the Upper half of the guide shorter. Which this Inturn Mades for a Unstable Valve For a Daily Driver Putting more wear on the Guide itself.

As soon as I get this New computor all straighened OuT and software reinstalled ?some new software as well. Because i stepped up to windows xp Pro.So some of my old software doesn't work. I will Get back On my web site Up dateing The Head & Lump port Photos Which Will show The Full installation of the Lumps and The Full Kit that I sell. Along with Some photos of the Engine Companys Intake Manifolds from our Friends In South Brazil. I have like 6 different intakes and a Valve cover & side covers from them I also have a New ALUM thermo Housing , a rockerarm stud griddle/guide So Please give me about a week to get all this Up.
Thank You }[oooooo]

Hi Larry,
I don't know what went wrong with your Devcon, but like Crockett, I have used Devcon for years and find it to be an excellent product.

Jim

hello...great info Larry/Twisted 6 thanks for sharing...hope all is well...
i enjoyed reading your Post, again thanks....

1 thing came to mind as you shared your experience-not trying to butt heads with you-I am tired of that-hope we can work together at this point, sooo as I said let me share this.....
for best flowing port, i have found grinding/cutting out ALL of cast valve guide is best-just DONT cut off bronze valve guide-when bronze valve guide is pressed in , this will support valve and open up port.....this is a -yes here i go again- PES special technique....

as I have read many of these Posts over and over , i find the best 1 to be the 1 that wonders what it would be like if you and I could work together- I am ready...i hope we can move ahead..........

I know many Use the Devcon That is one reason why I bought it to try it.Well it did come from auto Zone LOL so who knows. This Could have just been a Bad Tube I use a lot of The A&B epoxy from moroso and JB Weld Industro Cold weld compound And Just started to play with One other Brand Which at this time seems Much Stronger and Lighter.

I know that leaving the Guide itself will Help the Valve. BUT Some Do cut the whole thing Out and I was Just Stating THAT It is not a good thing to have it all REMOVED. I have a Head Here Right Now That Was Done Many Years ago By Crane and It has No Valve Boss Guide Or Guide showing in the Head. NameLy the Exhaust Side. But anyway.When I get half a chance Jim I need to give you a ring. }[oooooo]

yes, by having NO valve guide boss- the stock cast 1 or pressed in bronze guide-is NOT a good thing...........

Larry, thanks for your post, it's one of the best lump explanations I've read around here. (Usually the posts say that lumps are better than gold, because they improve flow, etc. We never get any more detailed explanations.)

So about the valve bosses, the best thing would be to either taper them or remove them but then install bronze pressed-in guides? (I guessing here but, these guides probably stick out and end up in the same place the original bosses were at??)

I think I've seen that before on performance heads, they have no provision for the valve boss, just the pressed in guides sticking out. I wonder how this would fare longterm? I guess if I've never once heard of guides falling out of full bosses they're not really likely to fall out of a reduced boss.

well you havent obviously read many of my Posts concerning the Big picture of the Bolt In Lumps/plates....its funny, again I would like to work with Larry , but its too bad he puts down PES.....

Its seems there are very few people who work on these Inline 6's and PES has so much info for us all...It seems maybe Larry has had a bad experience with PES , but I havent...shouldnt we support PES ? Clyde has YEARS of work on these heads---I have never read much support here for PES except from me?
HAs anybody else here used his plates? been to his shop? Worked with him on this? WHY not accept he is YEARS ahead of ALL of us? whats up with all this?
At this point all i read here is How Clifford charges too much...PES products are not good and LeeLites pushes too hard... so who will you guys believe? what is it? do you really think you can do better than those that have YEARS of work and willing to share? of course ....this has gotten WAY out of hand-but its me , right?

so go ahead just keep putting down Inline 6 specialists and think you are going to better....I have shown many what is Posted here and they just dont know why we wont work together???? I ask same thing....Do you think i want to to cause a problem or share info that ,YES some do realize what i share is like gold.....

I have yet to hear/read from ANYONE else but myself on using the PES Lumps/plates here-or ANY Bolt-In Lumps Plates or ANY lump ort head.....
so what gives you credibilty of what actually works and what doesnt?


it seems some here dont want the truth even it was handed to them with a hand full of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.....
I do not like the fact that Twisted6/ Larry and I have a bad experience here-its just he hasnt done what i have- why is it so bad I have done alot and bring it to this site and some just dont like me?...that still just change the info I share.....

I really think Magic Mike is onto something.....I NEVER see V-8 guys "beat" each other up like this?

your turn now.........

Lee,

I think most folks just don't respond well to a hard sales pitch, and you do come on very strong for PES you have to admit.

Someone once told me : You have to "Command" peoples respect not "Demand" their respect.

I don't think there is anyone here (Larry included) who does not think that PES has a wealth of knowledge and good products but I wonder if your not doing them a disservice by over-selling them. A qulity shop and a quality product sells itself.

If you'll forgive me a moments indulgence here I'll tell you this: I opened my machine shop 15 years ago and have NEVER had business cards printed! My work speaks for itself.

I am by definition a "do-it-yerselfer" I am quite sure that before I am through with my project I will probably have made my own set of "lumps". Why ? because I CAN and just like Larry and others . . . I just can't help myself ! I'm a tinkerer a tuner and a "hands-on" kinda guy!

PES didn't invent the "lump", do you question them on why they bothered ? I'm sure Clyde's answer would be the same as Larry's, Luis's, mine or any one else who's working on L6 head's.
It's to explore, expand and develope the theory of L6 head porting as well as our own knowledge.

Where would you be if Clyde would have been satisfied with heaping tons of Bronze into the ports of a head ? You and the rest of us wouldn't even have the option of a Bolt-in lump would we ?

I agree with you that there are many "Tried and true " answers out there. Lots of "proven" ways of doing things But we choose to be different. That's why we have Six cylinders to begin with ! We don't always want "Tried and true" or we'd have V-friggin'-8's.

I have learned much from you and your posts and you are a valuable resource here but please don't stand in the way of curiosity and inventivness that's how the "New stuff" comes to be.

I think we question you as the "Messenger" not your "Message".

What can I say. . . It's your approach not your information.

Sorry for the rant, it's just that I've seen another excellent Forum burn down because of this same kind of tension and mis-understanding.

Someone took the time to provide this forum and it's a fantastic site. I'm very excited about my new project and I, for one, would hate to see this site disappear.

I guess we have to remember we really are "INLINE" with one another !

'Crockett

Luis BRW
If you not after The extreme CFM #s you can do a good blending of the port Bowl(clean up any ruffness taper/round off the Valve guide Boss,Gasket match the Port openings. And not have to worry about epoxy blending the Lumps. And you will still see a very good Increase in CFMs. But If you are after the Extreme cfms then Blend the Lumps into the port(clear to the back) remove the Valve Boss Or Blend it to the Point of (lets say It was removed).But If you do remove the Boss a 100% DO NOT CUT the Guide off Leave it in the Port.YES the guide would still be in the same Location It just won't have any Boss around it.
But as a good Hot Street or daily driver I wouldn't be to worried about going to the Extreme side of things. Unless You have ran a Motor with Out this Modification and KNEW your Motor That well.BUT had Just built the motor for the first time with these head Modifications You wouldn't know or feel the differene Between a HOT Street and a All Out Extreme Race FLOW Head. BUT to go from a Stock Head to a HOT STREET Yes you would feel and see a difference.

THIS IS ONLY A EXAMPLE(food for thought)
A good example of a good Hot Street Head is stock Or 1.8 valves intake. Exhaust stock 1.5 or 1.6 a nice 3 angle valve job cleaned up ports with a lump added to the Ports & a good example a Hot Race setup would be the 1.8 or 1.94 Intake with 1.6 exhaust a fully Ported Head lumps blended Valve guides addressed add a 3-4 angle valve job. BUT it is best to address the whole combination
Intake,exhaust, Cam, Carb to make the whole Combination work like you want And only have to do it once.
Hope this helps }[oooooo]

Not sure why I'm even going to bother making a comment.BUT Lee I never once said PES lumps weren't any Good.

BUT YOU have No CLue to what I have or haven't DONE.!! BUT anyway The way I see it at this POINT and I don't care what You think about it.I did this for myself And wanted something That took less work to install for not only myself but others AND I have been asked Many times for well over a yr now to start BUILDING These Heads AND Have been told By Many I Have a much Better piece.AND this by many I have never even met face to face.

AND BESIDES why should I PUSH PES lumps when I now have My Own Thank you Very Much!! ok I have said enough sorry guys.}[ooooooo]

lee, i also like your thoughts or ideas, and contributions. but crockett did state it correctly, you can be demanding about your thoughts. let's just lay it out there and let people make up their own minds. p.s i do have the pes boltin's. and i am also waiting for larry's. now which epoxy is the one to use? tom

Use the A&B epoxy from Edelbrock or Morosso - doesn't matter, niether of them actually make it and they both buy it from the same supplier - it is about $25 for two big sticks (about 2 pounds or so) It is plenty to do your head two or three dozen times (in case you screw up)------------------------------------------

MOROSO 35560 - Moroso 35560 - Two-part bonding product molds like putty, yet hardens in one hour to steel-like consistency Does not shrink and is not affected by solvents, oils or gasoline

______________________________________________
Edelbrock A&B EpoxyA universal filler.

These two-part bonding products mold like putty, yet harden in one hour to a steel-like consistency. They don't shrink and aren't affected by solvents, oils, or gasoline. The maximum temperature they can withstand is 250 degrees F, which makes them perfect for repairing intake manifolds, cylinder head intake ports, heads, and blocks. They can be drilled and tapped when hard, adhere to almost any clean surface, and harden in 60 minutes at 75 degrees F.
Part# EDL-9290

ken, thanks for your very straight forward answer. tom

i have aquick question about epoxy...besides having the head washed and cleaned is there any other surface preparation to the metal that needs to be made to make the epoxy i guess "stick" better?

I am 70+ years old and a six guy to the end..Run and raced six's all my life. The year I have been reading and posting on this site has been the steepest learning curve ever.I just read the posts and weed out the fodder. Just set around and WISH I had known about LUMPS back in the FIFTYS !!!!After reading all this back and forth I and already HOT to find me a 292 and start over. I am telling you one thing for sure I have saved all the posts about DECKING,PISTON CUTTING,LUMPS,CRANKS and this will be my bible when I build my next motor..You guy keep it coming,old gizzers like me LOVE it..SCRAP

theone61636

Read and do what ever the instructions tell you to do.But the surface should be ruff NOT Real smooth. hope this helps }[oooooo]