Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Better milage with dremel modified head?

Plaese check this article:

Modified Head

You may also read the FAQ and how to do it by your selfe:

Howto

What do you guys think? Will thet work?

Sounds good to me and worth to give it a try on an spare head.

Frank

Wow, I have never heard of cutting a groove into the head like that. If it works, Might give it a try.

Looks real scarry to me. How close is he to water? What happens when carbon builds up? What about the stress riser created which will lead to cracking?

That's what I was thinking after seeing some of the stuff I learned from Larry. I would be real afraid of water

not something I'd be all that willing to try either First off he wants you to Mill the head down to raise the compression Then turn around and cut at least .005 groove to lower the compression back down by 1cc.

If piston to head is at .070 Or .040 as he said he has run that close. How Close are the valves to piston???? Surely makes me wounder. He also does states You can Hit water If things are not checked Before cutting the groove Hummmmmmm Really makes one wounder doesn't it???????
One Other funny thing I read Is that he wouldn't do a Dyno Test UNLESS someone Else Pays for it??????????????

I have a fire slot cut into my Dome pistons But not something I'd be to willing to do to my heads something about that don't really seem right,and Like french said what about carbon build up in that slot what happens over time there????? carbon is pretty hard. And the compression I would think could very easily crack The head In that V groove you now have cut into the head esp. if for some odd reason it ever Back fired????? Or what if someone desides to add some NOS
Just my 2cent thoughts.

Be afraid of water if you cut through, but a lot of metal at the squish area is reinforced.

I love the idea and I hope that this guy gets a Dyno test donated soon. Don't know how he did it in India with a Dremel, but if there were as many chassis dyno setups have here, I'm sure it would have been done a long time ago. I think it is more of a case where he "can't" do the test UNTIL someone else pays for it, not UNLESS.

Increased compression is really good for efficiency and the faster burn seems to be clean and in addition to the lower operating temp head cracks might be less of a possibility. There is a photo purportedly of a year old groove and there is not only no noticeable carbon buildup, the burn pattern is remarkably complete.

Everything seems to have a blue hue and the claim is that plugs and oil seem to be cleaner than anything the guy has seen. That sounds like a hot burn and NOx is going to be an issue. This is pretty much all one guy, "Automotivebreath" an engine builder in the Tx/La area.

If any mechanic with 30 years experience and race track pictures starts singing praises, it is worth a second look.

to cut grooves like that in a head with a ball mill then finish it up by hand with a hacksaw blade and a triangle file you would take the curve finish out of the base of the cut.?? too replace this with sharp corners and reduced wall thickness i would expect trouble with cracking..

sounds interesting. is anyone willing to try it? if so let us know the outcome. spare heads for these six's are cheap, especially in the unmodified state. it could just be the cost of gaskets and some time. i'd try it but my head is allready modified. i'd hate to cut the groove and then find it did not work on my head. i do have a stock six in a 65 wagon. i would be willing to do it to that. but not in the near future. tom

It all seems to lead to better (complete) combustion by generating a vortex or "swirl" in the combustion chamber. This "Firestorm" spark plug also goes along this road I think:

Firestorm Plugs

I wish they make it to the market one day, sound promising.

Frank

I thought the Firestorm was hype, and read about some PLASMA plugz. Those would be nice.

It looks like Dyno testing is going to happen. At least two people over at Speed Talk have committed to it, and within a week or two , you'll have numbers to go with the pretty pictures.

Who makes the best quality heads for an SBC ?

Just finished up a 300 cc ford. I will provide results as they develop.


[img]http://members.cox.net/dwynne7/Blake%20r1.bmp[/img]

[img]http://members.cox.net/dwynne7/Blake%20r2.bmp[/img]

Brave man!!! Cant wait to hear these results.

Brave? I'm not sure what you mean. I have been grooving about two to three sets of heads a month for the last year. This one's for a friend, it's going in his street truck.

Update on Singh and his Grooves:
Popular Sience Article

Finally he was allowed to bring his engines and hook them to a Benz EC-70 dynamometer with a five-gas analyzer and a Benz gravimetric fuel-measuring device. A week later, he got his results. According to ARAI, at between 2,000 and 2,800 rpm, Singh’s modified engine used between 10 and 42 percent less fuel than its unmodified twin, with no appreciable losses in torque or power. And, as he suspected, it ran cooler too—as much as 16°C cooler.

I still don't believe it, with out running the unmodified heads on engine "A" then pulling the heads, making the cut, and then rerunning the same engine head combination, you are only assuming both engines are twins. The test doesn't count! Even the same engine on different days will produce different results, so comparing two engines doesn't cut it in my opinion. Maybe if they were Nascar built engines worth $75,000 each I would believe it! Joe

Even Two Fully Blue printed engines will run differently. They would run close But each engine built has it's own characteristics.I learned that when I used to run and Build BB chevys.To me it also wasn't worth the extra Bucks spent on having the motors blue printed (if you knew what you did on the first one and it didn't work, What good were the blue prints?) So i would have to pretty much agree with Joe.Even the Quailty of fuel would also make a difference as to the Out come.

The Benz Dynamometer test was on a lwnmower engine. There is another dyno that was done on a Small Block Chevy recently and it showed a 3% torque increase above the best results from the unmodified heads.

Test1: dyno pull with unmodified heads
Test2: dyno pull with grooves only

Still, this doesn't show what the grooved engine is capable of doing. The benefits of higher compression without ping in addition to other low end torque benefits mean this is still a pretty good idea in my book.

I agree it's best to test the same engine on the same day. Test engine, pull and modify the head(s) reinstall and test again. I hope to find an Eddy current load control dyno with an adjustable timing setup so I can see if I’m able to run more or less timing without detonation under load.

The valve job was completed on the L6 head today, It should be running next week.

I agree with your guys and all this
"2 engine/2heads stuff".


But we are talking about 10%-42% better fuel economy.
This are big numbers that are way to huge to talk them away with the 2 engine argument.

Claimed reductions in fuel consumption are extraordinary. When you consider that the internal combustion engine has a thermal efficiency range of 30% - 35% you realize potential for improvements are very real. This means 65% to 70% of what you put in the fuel tank is wasted.

Turbulence from the grooves alone are only part of the equation. It is a known fact that higher compression improves efficiency. If the modification allows increased compression on low octane fuel, claimed improvements can be realized.

Unless there is some physical proof. example
Dyno sheets (tork & horse power gains) some sort of mileage proof. Its all begaining to sound like Here say. This topic has been going on now for at least 4mo.s and the pics are a nice peice of work. but this is all we have seen. So still my 2cents is Not something I'd be willing to do to one of my heads, carbon build up is still always a factor( over time) no matter what the compression is.

Did I read that right, dyno test was done on a lawn mower engine! I can get 40% better fuel milage from my lawn mower by leaning out the mixture! Joe

... the pics are a nice peice of work. but this is all we have seen. So still my 2cents is Not something I'd be willing to do to one of my heads, carbon build up is still always a factor...

I'm not asking you to buy it, believe it or anything of the sort. If you don't believe it works, by all means don't get involved.

On the other hand those who are interested can gain from my experience. I'm studying the modification and educating myself on the changes in my engines performance. Have been modifying engines for over 30 years so grinding on engine parts is nothing new.

I have over 15 engines running with the modification. I can provide details to any one interested in testimonials. If things go as planned I will beable to provide scientific evidence later this year. Until that documentation is available we will depend on testimonials, believe them if you like.

Here's a picture of the combustion chamber from one of the race engines I ran last year.

How deep did you go with the groove?

Perhaps the people at Sissel's Auto, in Covina would be interested in testing this. They do a lot of head work/modification etc.

Good luck.

That looks pretty good. But a race engine doesn't see nearly the amount of carbon build up as a Daily driver. What motor is this? I have to ask that silly question cause I see no Plug? what is the top of the piston look like? How high is the compression On this Race Motor?flat top or pop-up pistons. Inever said i didn't believe it.
But how ever I do realy Have a silly Question Only for the fact that something was said about Gaining Mileage On a Lawn Mower???? How many people you know drive their lawn mowers to work????? LOL I just had to pick at that 1.lol

Normally aspirated 355 CI SBC
AFR 190 heads with 67CC combustion chambers
TRW mini dome pistons - steel rods
Isky solid flat tappet cam 263/268 0.050” - 0.555” lift.
11:1 compression - 0.037” squish clearance
750 Holley - 83 jets square – Victor Jr. intake
RPM range 5200 – 7200
10.65 ET @ 123 MPH at 3000 Lbs

Well it depends on what you have to work with. As with cylinder head porting; the first and most important thing to do is determine where the water jackets are. I like to groove aftermarket heads because the manufacturers add material to the deck, this allows grooving with out worry of weakening the head or hitting the water jacket.

If deck thickness allows I cut the initial groove 0.060” to 0.080” deep. When the deck is thin ( < 0.250”) I cut the initial groove to 0.040” deep. The bottom of the groove is then contoured into the combustion chamber cavity, getting deeper as it approaches the chamber.

This picture illustrates the depth at the cavity.

How does it run?

Can you realy turn the Idle way down til you almost can count the fan blades?

Can yoou realy scoot throu city traffic in 3th?

How about mileage and temperature?

Im up to buy an 61 Chevy Truck as an daily driver.
If the grooving works I´l give it a try.

Frank

I have been able to realize the claimed benefits. Idle speed lower and smother. Reduced engine temperature and improved mileage. I honestly got 23 MPG in my 10:1 compression grooved suburban with conservative driving style, running 87 octane regular!

I haven’t done one with a standard transmission to experience the high gear low RPM claims.

Ok What was the other head That has no spark plug hole Or am I that Blind??? It doesn't apear to have one.

The camera angle does not include the plug.

This should clear up the confusion; the plug hole is the dark spot at the top.

aw ok now I see why it didn't show up in the Other pic

There is a little different slant on this topic at www.realoldspower.com. Go to the site click on forum,go to Hard core race/engine tech and
scroll down to Notching combustion chamber thread. There must be something to this notching
to improve the combustion process.
Gordy

Yeah I see this topic has been Beat just about every where. Starting almost a yr ago. and still nothing much has shown any proof. and to many other changes at the same time. from what I have read. ( over well Over 7 pages on different sites)

all talk about upping the compression at the same
time. No leaving it like it was to see what Gains maybe had or made?? so in all reality it almost
sounds as if your not going to up the compression Not much point in grooving your head??
But I do understand the idea behind doing( or reason for)
But i can agree with many others If this is so much of a big Gain In Power & tork and Fuel saving
Why don't the BIG GUYs do it ( top fuel funny car and so on)So it does Kinda make one wounder????
And Yes i have to agree with many others On them sites One does seem to walk around the answers when asked Nothing straight forward Or proven.
How ever it would be interesting to see What it would change On my new motor after It's seen some track time But ,By the same token I'm not about to spend the time nore the money on another HP head for the same motor. On a stocker yeah maybe
nothing lost there if it didn't work.But I'm not racing a stock motor. And I'm not about to take my daily driver apart.and milling a head or change Pistons just to up the compression It's really telling you that the groove did anything on it's own.

Larry,
I think it would be best if you let more people give it a try before you decide to do it your self. I've been talking to these people at the MPG forum; following their progress.

MPG

I have no problem with leting others try it. It is solely up to that peron/s do what ever they wish. But as I see it and have read You/They are doing more then Just the groove( raiseing the compression) at the same time. so to me This Proves Nothing of the groove itself is all I'm saying.

OPS my type O It's NOT really telling you that the groove did anything on it's own.
You can't change two things at once and say one thing Made the biggest difference.
Now if you had Lets Just say a 10-1 compression and You grooved the head and Only took out .050 and then you milled the head that same .050 to Keep the same 10-1 and You gained Hp and MPGs then Yes I would have to agree The groove did something on it's own. BUT your NOT doing that, so i don't feel your Proving an thing the way i see it.

Larry, I happy we got to this point of the discussion. I agree with you totally. When testing a modification with more than one change at a time it is difficult to determine what change resulted in the benefits.

To simplify things lets talk about one change only. I bought my Suburban new; the 350 engine came with 9:1 compression. If I raised the compression to 10:1 with no other changes; the efficiency would improve as a result of the higher compression; right?

right and with that small amount of increase you should still have been able to run the same fuel.with out any pining or run on.