Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Hybrid cylinder head!

Hi guys!

I´m trying since January to take a 12 port Cylinder head from Sissel´s shop, and Hank is helping me a lot with this making the intermadiation between me and Mike, but it seems that the 12 port is no longer available.

So... I was wondering. What about a Hybrid cylinder head??
It´s better than Sissell´s 12 port head??

Does anyone have any information about this??

I contact CDP Auto Machine, and I know that there is an inliner member from CDP.

Any information about the Hybrid cylinder head will be fine, like costs, flow numbers, etc..

Douglas Carbonera - Brazil

Yes It is Leo Santucci who has a 292 with the V8thing Head. and if I remember it is also a Alum
set of head/s cut and rewelded into One.
One of the Main draw back with Useing the V8 heads
Is you now also have to Make different side covers for the lifters Because The Push Rods are
Now out side the Block.

Check the classifieds - I think Deppe is making a 12 port head

Before you do that,
you might want to conduct a poll to see if there dealings w/Joe Deppe are good ones?
Just a thought.

why are the heads not available from sissels? i know where a older head is and can find out for you douglas. tom

Mike says he is not going to cast anymore.
He has none in stock. All gone. He doubt's he will make any more.

Tom if you could find a head for Douglas that would be great!

Deppe is not making anything For that matter he is
trying sell it all from what i understand.
AND secondly GOOD Luck getting anything from him.
It to is to my understanding he's about as crooked
as a ligthing bolt when it comes to getting the
stuff from him ONCE you send him your money. SOOOOOOO
buyer BeWare. And this problem is NOT JUST to US buyers here in the USA.

Larry:
O saw some pictures at CDP Auto Machine Site! I like the way to put a cross flow head in a Chevy 6... But, it seems it´s a very difficult to adapt the head into the block. Like bolt battern, water passages, push rod side covers.....

6inarow:
Hank told me that Deppe´s Head have an old port design, and don´t flow like a Sissell´s head... If I don´t get Sissell´s Head, I will contact CDP Auto Machine to make a Hibrid head maybe...

Tom:
The head not available is the aluminum 12 port!!If you know one of that, please, let me know! I want it!!

Hank:
Don´t you sell your 12 port head for me??
Just Kidding!!
What a sad thing Hank!! I´m really disapointed with that!! Mike offer´s me the Lump Port, but I don´t want it.

Larry:
Thanks for the advice!!
Hank told me too that Deppe is not a good guy to make any kind of business.

I was looking last night in Leo´s book...
Does anyone here know "Bow Tie" cylinder heads??
They make Hybrid heads too...

Any information?

"Bow tie" is the nick name for the Chevrolet emblem. Leo uses aftermarket heads. You must fabricate the intake, exhaust and sideplate. The block deck must be pluged and redrilled for the new headbolt pattern. This is not a simple bolt together engine combination.

Thanks Armond!!

I really want something different for my car.
If I bring one of this two head, the Sissell´s 12 port head or a Hybrid head, I will be the first brazilian guy to run with this stuffs here in Drag Racing...

Gentlemen;

What happened to that "trick" head that was made from two SBC high preformance ones?? It was shown here a while back.

What happened to the Sissel 12 port one for the 250/292 that was in production?? Last year as I remember.

Has the high fuel cost killed that too??

John!!!

Sissel´s head is no more available! No more castings, no more in stock... NOTHING!!!

My hope is on this Hybrid head! Maybe the guys of CDP Auto Machine can make another one...

Another possibilty is to get enough commited interest with hard cash commited ($1000 each) for an order of say 500 heads and then approach edelbrock, DART , or possibly AFR with an order. My guess is that they won't turn it away. BUT I dought that we would get that much committed interest here.

that's a good idea. who want's to pursue it?

If your all REALLY that interested in coughing up that Kinda MONEY THEN WHY not send it to MIke Kirby He already has the casting done. WHY FIDDLE FART around with someONE who don't even CARE geez.
Just My2cent.
And Besides that Their not about to be that interested to start with for a Motor That's NOT EVEN BEING made anymore. GET REAL.
And to much other work needs to be done to the
Blocks to run the V8style heads to even start
with JUST like Armond said.

Okay; that sounds like the place to start then.

Perhaps Larry could give Mike a call to see if he's interested etc.

Then; We open an escrow account and collect the money. When It's all there, (in escrow) Mike will know were serious and make them.

Should be a 'done deal' by mid Spring.

twisted, it was said earlier in the post that mike don't/ won't make them anymore? maybe he could sell the patterns to someone who will. tom

The key to success here is to get the price of the head down to $1000 for a complete head.

John's idea of an escrow account is the correct way to proceed this way no one has to worry about their cash vanishing into thin air.

Issues that will need to be solved is runner and chamber volumes. For a 250 ci motor most likely the intake runner should be around 170cc (think 327 sbc) and for a 292 around 195 or 200cc (think 400 sbc). For a real high output 250 the 200cc head would most likely be fine, but to big for a mild to med. street motor.

If the chambers were sized to the 250 stock volume with enough deck material to allow milling to sub 194 volume would this satisfy everones needs?

Also personally I'd like to see bosses cast into the intake runners to allow direct fuel injector mounting along with the needed hole to hold the fuel rail in place.

To ease installation the proposed head should maintain the inline head bolt pattern and valve train geometry - comments?

Other items that would need to be agreed upon are intake manifold flange and exhaust header flange. Obviously keeping the stock exhaust flange would be best for most folks.

Intake manifolds would also need to be designed and fabricated.

Does anyone here have pattern making exeperience?

I think the guy with the choped 40 coupe does. There's a guy that built a 'fancy intake' for a slant 6 Dodge as well.

Some 'wiz kid' with a CAD program & some enginering smarts is just waiting to be heard.

Stand up and be counted!

Anybody with a welder and grinder (and big hammer) can build their own intake.
There are plans and calculations in Leo's BOOK.
I built mine from aluminum square tubing for bling, but steel would work just as well.

I have built my own intake ,And Im now doing another out of Alum. for my New/Fresh Motor.
I'm also going to be making Both intake & exhaust flanges for the New intake & headers.

Now as for this head issue Thing. Edelbrook was
approach few years ago WITH Blue prints Inhand
And they flat out told Him They had NO interest once so ever. 1Main reason is there is Not Nore
is there any High volume of interest(meaning sales) for Them to even bother thinking about it.

So really The bottom Line is You would/will Never
see a Head for our L6s Priced at 1000 bucks
( even if every club member wanted one) out
Of Alum You can't even do a V8 set, cut into one for Our L6s for that Little.
Mike Kirby But a LOT of his Money and Time into
the head and what he is asking to me Is more then a fair price. Especialy for a VERY Slim & Slow market.
So pesonaly even On a PrePay If there isn't enough
people Buying It still wouldn't off set the cost to have them cast & machined.When the start-up costs are in the 10s of thousands of dollors. It would take almost forever to recover the start up costs. And we are a very slim club when it comes to Having a High proformance HEAD sitting on our Motors.Not something a guy wants for His daily driver.

thanks for letting me now Vent my 2cents.

Perhaps a head count is in order as to how many folks are interested and ready to front cash by say Feb. 1/07. If the numbers are not there the rest really doesn't matter. Perhaps there are members that don't come in here that may be interested if you know of folks contact them and enquire.

Your both right.

This is why the Wayne MFG Co. is "on hold" etc.

Before we get all steamed up here, let's see what Mike wants to start up again.

Then; if we can meet that number it may be possible.

I agree with Larry. $1,000 is not enough for a complete set up. That would only cover the accesories, maybe??

A realistic number is probably $4,000. :rolleyes:

For the sake of discussion ONLY (and not to anger anyone!!!!), if Mike is not interested, maybe we might have a big enough group to approach Deppe and keep him on the straight and narrow. Sometimes, as the song goes, "you cant always get what you want, ... but you get what you need". Lets not get all wound up about Deppe, and lets be rational - this might be an alternative

SO.. whats this head really worth to the 50% of the guys on this board that are running in the 14"s if they are lucky? I would say 4 to 5 tenths. In my case maybe I could make into the 14s.When I weigh $1000.00 against that...huummm Now talking SHOW and BENCH racing..... PRICELESS!!!!

Personaly I think and fell You'd have better luck with Mike. At least is on the up&up with out a dout.and again I personaly wouldn't deal with Deppe.
And besides That Mikes Head is much more up to date and More HP(gain) then the Older Deppe head.

And yes 4000 is going to do a lot more then a grand.Because your talking Just shy of 4000 for
His stageIII head. Plus intake valve cover your
exhaust so on(extra goodies) to go with it.
Which still one of the BEST Bangs for the Bucks.

If you was to spend that Kinda money on that Head you wouldn't be shooting for 14s I'll tell you that Much.
The Older head was good for 2hp per cubic inch.
That head was on a 230 that Put out 460hp it had a 800 lift cam and feed with 3 660 Holleys.

twisted, just to add in a small plug. the model A motor has not been made for a few years, yet there is a new head out there called the riley. i don't even know anyone working on one of those motors. lets keep our thoughts clear and explore the different alternatives. maybe deppe could build the heads if he was managed with the production. he could possibly update the chambers and ports also. why isn't mike doing the heads any more? tom

It not that he isn't doing heads. It just that The cost is Not cheap.
Let me put it this way If you were the One Putting out all the Bucks and Not getting the investment Back soon/fast enough To off set the OUT-a pocket money and They SAT on the shelf For
any time frame Would you keep making them?? faster then you could ever sell them??

Here I have a Much Better example I think.?
when I do a cast Run of my Lumps I don't do a
thousand of them. Lets say i only do 100-200 at a time. Sure may cost me less to do the thousand.
But it would take much more Out of pocket in the
long run. Because of the time it would take to sell that thousand.
What ever you make or sell OR to sell you want that product to pay for itself and for ITself to pay for the next batch and in Hopes????????
because you don't want the reacuring costs comming out of you own pockets, while your waiting for the firsts to sell.
And this applys to anything. It's one thing to brake even On things But That still never pays for your time and effort.
maybe I'm way off here Or just my way of thinking. But if the market just isn't there then your only going to lose money in the long run.

I'm with tlowe's thinking. FYI go to www.secretsofspeed.com and click on scalded dog speed parts. You will see the Model A guys step up and buy their speed parts. Charlie has small runs once a year - I dont remember the number but its 25-50 at a shot. Asks for 50% down and he sells them. He has them sold or committed for before they produce them and then he does his job and gets a quality product out at a reasonable time. It seems if the Model A and B guys can do it the 292 guys can too. and whats more they sell 2 types of heads - the Lion and the Riley, plus all the crap that goes with them.

If Mike isnt interested, give Deppe a shot and then hold his feet to the fire. if he doesnt produce, go through the legal channels. I'm with tlowe - lets explore different alternatives

I too, (vaguely) remember the Riley head from the 50s 'dry lakes crowd'. This appears to be a remake with todays technolgy etc.

I don't know Mr. Kirby, but he has the latest information on these (1963-??) Chevy 6 heads etc.

Let's find out HOW MUCH and go from there. It's definately to much money to start from scratch.

IF, (the big if word) we had orders for 20 heads @ $4,000 that would be $80,000 in escrow. Now; he could expect 1/3 front money or $24,000, right??

Larry, see if 24k gets any interest??

larry you are right if you dont make your money back fast it is not worth making the part.

and from what i have seen most of the inline 6 people are cheap. look at a lot of the posts. i want to go fast but don't want to spend any money.

the deposit for the riley head is more then what a lot want spend for compleat head for a 6.

Now that we are bringing in Riley 2-ports into this thread, it should be noted that in 1954 Harry Warner was asking $330 for a 12-port head set-up for the Chevy 216 and early 235 engines.

In 1960, a 21-year-old service station mechanic, making about $2 per hour, paid $405 for a 12-port head (with valves, springs, rocker arms, valve cover, side plate, head bolts, etc) for a 261 from Bob Toros. Toros had acquired the patterns for the original "Wayne head" from Harry Warner and modified them for the 18-bolt 235s and 261s. Of course, once the 265 and 283 V-8s became established, the demand for Chevy six equipment declined somewhat.

If one assumes a 5% inlation factor, $330 in 1954 wolud be well over $4,000 in 2006. It is not easy to get much high-tech casting and machining for "only" $4,000 now in 2006. What does a good machinist or mechanic make now?

Are there any inliners with machine shops in China? An Enco mill is a lot less expensive than a Bridgeport, but it's not made in the USA.

Hoyt
II #922

Well ok not that i really wanted to be the Middle
man here. But How ever i did take the first step.
I spoke with Mike kirby tonite for about 2hrs.So
bottom line is this to keep a long story short.
1) resaon for not making More heads Is Old molds
which may?????????? or may not need some repairs?

The molds he has/or has made
were not built like edelbrock,Dart,roush,merlin
to where they would out last a life time of
castings. These were ment for low productions
(lets just say 20-30) now if they did need to much
repair and New Mold would be in order WHICH
could run from 5-10,000??????? And by the time
they were cast/made it would be at least a year
by the time he got all the machine work done on
them to Be ready to go out the door. AND due to
the increase In FUEL & cost of ALUM. They would run a little more then what He just sold these
last ones for. Which could be????????
about 1000. more. so you would be looking at
ruffly 5000????. out the door and ready to go.

Now on to the whole dollor thing. yes we did talk
about that as well, about this escrow way and having 24k more or less ??? So that each is
pretty much on a prePaided and all the money was
pretty much there. So that less out of Pocket sorta speak. Then yes maybe if it showed enough
interest That you guys wanted to go this route.

I maybe interested in playing middle man to a
degree, But as for the Middle man with this escrow
I'd have to say sorry. this would have to be
handled between You guys and Mike on how you would
handle that.
But if there is only a handful ( 5-10 )thats willing to cough up the Bucks.Then I have to ask Please don't waste my time Or Mikes and this is my oppion not HIS/Mikes because it's not worth our
time if your just talking wind and going to let
the Ball Drop. Yes i picked the ball up and Now it's Yours.

So now for my last 2cent oppion is a old fraze
The men step up to play and the boys go Home.

Larry,

Well said and thanks for your efforts.

As Larry said its time to stand up and be counted. I'm in if the head with guides and seat done with valves - no springs for under $2K.

If I you can get a pair of really good PAIR of SBC heads for < 2K I can't see why we can't get a single head for that price.

Ummmm, Lets see ,,,, Larry said it would cost $5000.00 less springs $4,700.00
Where is $2000.00?
He said it will cost more now to make these heads,,,, not less.
So when Mike had these in stock they were $3000 & up,,,, back last year, they are not going to be cheaper now.....

Reason you can't get a Chevy six cylinder head for $2000.00 is because there is not a high demand for them.Plus,,,,,
Reason SBC heads are readily available, they are so popular...

There are mutiple companies making SBC heads competing against eachother that is why you can get them for a relatively cheap price.

Okay, we need to do two things here.

First: We need to see (exactly) how much it will cost to get the molds in shape for a 20 head run. Mike K. can do this.

Second: We need to see how many are interested in buying a $5,000 head. Post a poll here and see (exactly) what money we can get.

If 25 people sign up then it 'can be done'.

There's probably 2-3 that would buy them as an investment. What would a Wayne (new unused) be worth today??

In the "land of money" $125,000 is nothing today. Try some ads in Forbs, USA Today or the Wall Street Journal. It's out there, 'seek & ye shall find'.......

If you guys Look at Mikes web site You will see his stage3 is a fully done head from start to finish even stage two is Out the door ready to go head with all the goodies. Stage 1 pretty much a bare bone head. all the machne work is done
(seats,guides,street Ported,valves, guides honed,
and a valve job,)
Stage two has more and Stage 3 has more.
So stage (1) OLD Prices 2940, stage (2)3320
Stage (3)3650 OLD priceing. SO now due with the higher cost of Pretty much everything To Build the
same is MORE.

And Bottom Line is NO real Call/Market for this stuff sadly enough to say.
and from what I have seen over the years myself is that when somebody wants something Its here and NOW or more yesterday NO BODY wants to wait. Because all of a sudden they have a wild hair up their Butts and once the wild hair is gone THEY DON"T CARE plain and simple.
When Mike first made this new head it sat there and sat there,Then a Hot Rod mag did a story
and the Wild hair was up everyones BUTT. So even Now that the wild hair is gone Once again so are the heads. Even To me this makes for a real headack.
The V8 heads are like Butts & elbows everyBody has them and This is mainly why they can be Made so cheaply. NO Body wants to fix anything IT's BUY it and GO and the Heck with waiting.
Another very good example is when I first made MY
bell cranks It was like everyone wanted/needed one
now that those few/handful got what they wanted,
there is very little interest now. But That is just the way things are In OUR own little inliners world.


We are the few and we are Proud Of what we have.
And did anyone ever think On how old(young) some of these guys are and did it ever cross your minds They Just mit be getting a Touch burned out? Yes we need some Young Blood to step up and take over BUT we are still a very slim group That
want The HIGH TECH/Go fast goodies and even we are getting older, but we still want what we want
and Most of US want it NOW not later. Yeah I'd love to have one of then heads Or even one of the very first ones. But like I have that kinda money.And I know many of you Don't either,Yes it would be SWEET if we could get what the Vguys have.When it comes to picking up the book or Phone and say Hey I want that. But the Inline market Just Got Pushed WAY to far out/Back.For prices to even come close.And most of us Just want a good Sweet daily driver who now and then
can Blow the doors Of the vthings and the Tuner guys.


I'm sorry if I come across as being a smart** or even cold hearted in this matter, BUT reality is
what it IS.And sadly to say is we are truly a small But PROUD handful in a Tuner/vthing world.
Were things are cheaper for them.

To me this club is Great in many ways. We each try our best to help out. And for those that can
make things EVEN one offs and if some else see's it and likes it sometimes Gets A copy of those one offs. ALot of the Things i have seen Home made
are VERY Sweet and in some cases a true peice of
art/craftsmenship. And I try to do what i can,
and Im very Greatful for all the Feed backs &
intersts people show. I know I'll keep doing what
I can But i know one day I'll get the burn out to.
But hopfully someone would or will fill my shoes.

sorry for the Long wind.
BUT THANKs Guys

larry you have said the same thing i have only better and a little suoercoated. but still dead on.

i have some ideas for some heads but i have to say is it worth it. tie up my machines working on something then no one wants to pay for it.

one thing the enco mill is better then the bridgeport.