Inliners International Forums General Discussion Vortec 4200 Vortec 4200 installation notes

I thought I'd pass along any useful info on the 4200 as I progress the install into my '51 GMC where the now departed 292 used to live... This will be a running dialog as I find and fix issues.

The GMC has a '78 nova front clip installed so its a front steer chassis.

- the drag link and pitman arm interfere with the AC compressor
- since the 4200 is a deep skirt block the oil pan flange is about 4" lower than the 292 so the CL of the crank is much higher that the 292 (roughly 5" once I get the mounts made I update the dim).
- in '98 GM redesigned the 4L60E to use a longer input shaft and stator support - its about 30mm longer, so the 4200 needs a late model trans to work or these 2 parts changed out. The bellhousing is also deeper by 30mm.
- the distance from the back of the head to the bellhousing flange on the block is shorter by ~3" than the 292 so even with the extra 30mm of bellhousing the back of the head is closer to the firewall than the 292. I had to move the transmission mount forward about 1" so the back of the head had 1/4" clearance. The 292 had about 1" clearance to the firewall.
- the RH engine mount bolt pattern is different than the LH engine mount bolt pattern ( the LH is symetrical. The RH is not the top rear bolt is located lower by about 3/4".
- the oil filter is really close to the drag link need to verify.

I'm looking at doing this swap in a 64 Nova. Are you using a modified ecm or did I read in the other thread you are going aftermarket? Do you know where I can find some sketches with dimensions? The Nova is a rear steer and front sump pan already and it would be really nice if it fit.

I am going to use megasquirt and FORD EDIS-6 wasted spark, this eliminates all the GM electronics and I can tune it using a laptop. I'll measure the stock pan outline and post later in the week.

you mean a center sump.Not front But anyway Fro what I remeber of the oil Pan NO it will not Clear The drag Link. You maybe better Off changing the set-up to a Rack.& pinon???

"Center sump"? That's one I haven't heard when talking about the 4.2l Vortec. I was referring to the deep part of the oil pan being on the front of the engine for the 4.2l. And I was planning on going to a Unisteer brand Rack & Pinion which supposedly works with a front or rear sump.

- the head on the vortec is about twice as wide compared to the 292, for the AD series trucks it does fit into the firewall recess if you are careful with alignment.
- the noise reduction overcase on the intake mainfold needs to go as it sucks up the last 1/2" needed to get engien into the chassis without pounding on the firewall.
- the engine centerline is almost 2 1/2 inches high than the 292 due to the deep skirt.
- the '78 style frame isolators can be re-used ok, they need to be relocate to center up with the vortec engine mounts. The rest of the mount needs to be fabricated.

June 3 notes:

The engine needed to be moved foward almost 1 3/4" to get the intake mnifold to clear the firewall. This should not be an issue at the front since the Vortec uses a serpintine belt instead of the multiple v belts on the now departed 292.

a couple of questions: Have you thought of using the MegaSquirt GPIO to control the exhaust cam advance? Could you post pictures, i would like to see how things are lining up. Thanks for pioneering the use of this engine and sharing your findings.

I am hoping to be able to use one of the GM TBI to MS adapter outputs not used to control the transmission to drive the cam position. For now I'm leaving the cam control alone until the rest is done, the engine will run with it disconnected.

If not then I'll look at using the GPIO to do the job.
M

Engine mounts are built - but the project is going to have to wait for a bit as I need to re-roof the garage.

Update.. @#$ roof is 99% done the trim is going to wait until I get the truck running !

Next items are:

Balancer lock down
EDIS timing wheel install and alignment
Oil pick up install
Oil pan install (in the end I went with a fabricated pan - the cast pan project is onthe back burner until the winter).
Engine install.

Hope to have all of the above done before Sunday evening.

The harmonic balancer on the vortec 4.2 is not keyed to the crankshaft nor does it have any timing marks on it as the timing reference comes off the trigger wheel that is part of the crankshaft. This is fine if the GM electronics is used.

For my installation I need to fix the balancer to the crank so I can add timing marks to it to setup the EDIS system. To do this I ground the front inner face of the balancer crankshaft hub flush to the crankshaft in 1 spot using a flame tip carbide bit in the die grinder.
Once I had flush spot I drilled a 0.125" hole between the crank snout OD and balancer ID parallel to the crank snout. After cleaning the chips out I drove a 1/8" dowel pin into the hole. this locked the balancer to the crankshaft. GM uses a special diamond double sided washer to bite into the back of the balancer and the front of crank gear that runs the oil pump, to keep the balancer from moving the factory speca calls for the balncer bolt to be cranked to 110 lbs-ft torque + 1/2 a turn... <<< right!! this took a 4 ft pipe on the breaker bar - I was wondering if the engine stand was going to flip..

After finding TDC, 10, 30 & 60 deg. BTDC, I marked the timing cover as a timing reference and then scribed and stamped timing marks on the balancer drive belt pulley back wall that runs up against the block.

Once I get the engine running I'll need to check the EDIS timing wheel alignment using a timing light. With the spark advance control input wire disconnected the EDIS system goes into limp home mode and fires the coils at 10 deg BTDC. This is adjusted by moving the pick up sensor.

Can see you are really busy with all this swap process. But don't you have any pics? Mounts, pan...

I try and take a few a the end of each work session... I'll post the pix once I get the engine and trans in the truck.

The GM fuel rail uses the new style push and click hose connectors which are fine for stock applications. I adapted the fuel feed to an AN-6 flare using a swageloc fitting. Not cheap but quick and easy.

Below are a few pix of the oil pick up, pan, mounts, complete EDIS trigger and bracket, and the completed engine and trans ready to go into the truck (FINALLY !).

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SWEET!!!!

That looks like a main cap girdle. Is it?

Yes it is - stock GM parts! This is one wizzy engine. Some folks in the know (not me) claim that with bigger camshafts, minor exhaust port work and a set of headers its good for 100HP/hole.

There are some things that are a pain though - all the fittings are metric and all the critical fasteners are torque to yield crap.

600HP or 100HP per hole seems easy with forced induction.

That figure normally aspirated would take some serious revs, probably more piston speed than that undersquare design can handle.

Designed to be put together once on an assembly line then swapped if it has a major internal failure.

When we saw them being assembled at the GM engine plant in Warren, Michigan, five years ago this month, it was clear that these engines were intended to be "modules," not to be disassembled or tampered with by those without an automated assembly line. Overhauls or--Heaven forfend!--serious modifications by the unwashed were not part of GM's planning.

That engine plant once employed 12,000 people on three shifts. In 2002 the total number of employees was 72. The computers outnumbered the human beings in the building. We may wonder who is buying the automobiles that computers, not people, build.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

A couple of pix..

EDIS coil pack mounted where the stock ECM goes.



Exhaust head pipe

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Rest of the exhaust system - I reused the mufflers that I had behind the 292. Easiest exhaust installation that I've done! 5 1/2' of 3" straight pipe into a "Y" into 2 mufflers and turn downs - done!

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Here is an article on a prototype twin turbo six Trailblazer.
http://www.motortrend.com/future/concept_cars/112_0203_chevrolet_trailblazer_turbo

MBHD

Progress...

Engine is fully wired less the wideband O2 sensor, 4L60E harness is in progress. EDIS pickup & mount is now permanently installed. Drive belt installed with A/C compressor deleted. I might have to modify the RH inner fender to clear the P/S pump - wait an see on this one.


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Update...

The cooling system inlet is on the drivers side of the engine down low behind the alt. and is angled rearward and then has a cruved pipe to bring it around the alt. In my case the pipe ended 1/2" from the front upper control arm bushing.. no room for a hose.

So I shortened the inlet casting about 1 1/2" eliminating the pipe and will clamp the rad hose ontop of the inlet casting - using 2 clamps as there is no keeper ridge..

Engine and trans is now fully wired - abiet sans controller for the 4L60E - the software to run its not quite ready so I now have a manually shifted electronic transmission... using the shifter position switch to run 4 relays that drive the shift solenoids.. downside - no line pressure cutback so the shifts are going to be hard including engagement. Its a short term fix.

These engines don't have a dist. and the oil pump is driven off of the crankshaft snout so to pre-lube them you need an external pump. I was going to try using a grease gun - but decided to get a pump as I need to get this running for next weekend.

All the fittings are metric and one is a complete odd ball on the oil switch, 16mm x 2mm straight thread. So I have to make an adapter fitting from scratch using a 16mm x 25mm bolt - drill and tap for 1/8 npt.. add a seal washer and good to go.

More later.

Do those engines have reverse cooling?
Like,the cool water from the radiator goes into the cylinder head first ,then through the engine block?

MBHD

Not from GM.. but the thermostat is on the inlet not the outlet... If you used an external electric water pump and deleted the stck pump its not to hard to reverse the cooling flow.

Update..

The cable throttle body is now installed - it takes to adapter plates one that bolts to the intake manifold with the drive by wire (big brother is in your car) TB bolt pattern and a 2nd adapter plate to bolt an early LS1 cable operated TB. The 2 plates are then bolted together with a cable bracket.

The radiator clears the EDIS bracket fine - setting the initial timing looks like fun though... I think I fire the engine for 20 seconds or so before I install the rad and check the timing.

The PS resovoir does hit the inner fender - so I'm look for a solution - does anyone know if the LS engines use a remote resivoir and if the bolt pattern is the same as a 4.2 pump?

The Alternator hits the other inner fender - I have a 150amp alt. I'll check if the 120 amp will clear better. If so its a simple swap.

The rad hose situation is easier than 1st thought, I'll post pix and napa PN's once I have the final solution.


There is room for a puller fan, which is a bonus as with the 292 there was no room for a puller fan.

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Could "massaging" both inner fenders make enough room? Clearly, this would not be as pretty a solution. Just my .02.

It will, and since plan "A" didn't work I'll be getting the 10 lbs. tapping hammer out to make room for the alternator. I'm going to check how hard it will be to remote the PS resovoir before adjusting the other side....

Engine is ready to fire tommorrow night, did the EFI wiring checkout tonight, presurized the fuel rail to set the fuel pressure and leak check the fuel system.

Step 1 will be to check for spark and oil pressure on the starter before enabling the injectors.

Step 2 will be to fire it and check the base timing for the EDIS system before the rad is installed. This should take less than 30 seconds so I'm not worried about no coolant in the motor.

Once the base timing is set then I'll work on the clearance issues above and get the front clip bolted back on.

Still lots of little detials to finish.

What did they come in?

Yea! Its running! Now to finish all the nagging deatils. Deadline is Sat. AM - got a rod run to goto.

Saturday?? Good luck with that.

We got real close.... 98% complete ..

Anyway the P/S pump clearance issue is realtively easy to solve...

Mid-90's J cars ( Pontiac Sunbird etc...) with a 2.0 4 banger came with remote P/S resovoirs and the identical pump used on the 4.2 except the pulley size, so by exchanging the pulleys between the 4.2 pump and the 2.0 pump thats the fix for that issue.

One tidbit... with a rear sump pan it takes a long time to get the oil to the oil pump - so pre-lube the engine with an external pump then with the plugs out spin it until you get oil pressure - it takes about a minuite of cranking initally. Now that its running I get oil pressure in a few seconds.. I did get nervous with the ling prime time initally.

For my truck with the Nova front clip I was able to make the Trailblazer PS pressure line work with abiet with some mod's.

The Alt. side I'm sure a 100 amp off of a Colorado will bolt on and fix the clearance problem. No one had one in the city so I ended up massaging the inner fender a bit..

I had to get the rad re-necked to accomadate the difference in inlet/outlet sizes and to relocated them so they lined up on the same side of the engine coolant connections. Both the inlet and outlet connections on the engine needed to be shortened to get the hoses to route.

The A/C compressor delete is easy and allows the fixed idler pulley and A/C bracket to be removed which provides access for the lower rad hose. A shorter drive belt is needed.

You said this engine sits up quite a bit higher because of it's deep skirt design.

Just as a mental exercise, how much of that height is taken up by the oil pan? Would a dry sump oiling system allow the engine to sit lower?

Again, this is just a mental exercise for me.

The short answer is yes.

The long answer is I could lower the engine with the current pan design however I would also have to reduce the sump depth accordingly - as it is the sump is 2" lower than the front crossmember.
The pan takes 6 litres to get oil on the stick.

The overall height of the 4.2 is lower than the former 292 by about 2-3".

Yippee! Its moving under its own power - abiet only in the garage until a couple of minor bugs get fixed and the wideband installed.

I have some (4L60E) tranmission issues to sort out, no 2nd or 4th gear which points to a problem with band apply so I have to drop the pan and have a look see.

Still fighting tranmission issues.

We went out tonight to get a basic low - medium rpm/load fuel map built by driving at moderate speed in 2nd, 3rd, 4th...

I'm really quite impressed with how the 4200 moves the truck down the road even at part throttle.

The next chance I get I'll try and borrow a digital video cam and take some video of it running and driving.

Still have lots of small wiring issues to clean up , but its a running driving truck.

Regarding the oil pan, it looks like the the 5 cylinder uses a rear sump. Might be helpful for others looking to cobble something up.

More! We want more!

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Not sure what else your looking for, if you have a specific area of the swap I can take it on post. The truck is running and driving ok. With snow due by mid week supposed to be -10C - hotrod season is pretty much done here. Sunrise is about 8:15AM and sunset is about 4:45PM here. So the only time to do anything is pretty much on the weekends. We're at 52 deg north here so the winter days are short - like 6 hours on Dec 21, but during the summer its great - 18 hours of sunshine,,!