Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Stainless steel valves Vs. Titanium valves

What are the differences of applications?
Are the titanium ones a better choice for all applications?
Thanks a lot!

Those will cost you about $100.00 for each valve.
Not good for turbo applications.

They are for high RPM engines.


MBHD

So in my case, for street use up to 6000rpm, the best ones are the stainless steel.
Oh, to buy titanium valves I may have to sell my liver... or an eye... Too expensive!
Can I buy a SBC or BBC stainless steel valve and modify it to use in the Chevy 250 measuring 1.94 & 1.60?
If so, what valve should I buy?
Thanks a lot, Hank!!!

A nice one piece stainless valve will work fine.
Stanadard SBC valves drop right in,as far as length.
Manley, Ferrea (SP)
Need to watch out for installing too big of diameter valves, could get into the water jackets.
Good luck!

Ask Twisted 6 for more details.

MBHD

If you want a little better flow on the head change the valve guides out and run a 7mm stem. On the exhaust use a 23 degree tulip head and on the intake use a nail head valve stem and then back cut the valves. If you have access to a flow bench play around with the valve angles to determine the optimal angles to keep the fuel suspended a little longer. You will notice some gains in HP. The stainless valves are more than good enough for your application. On my race motor I use stainless valves and have had no problems with it.

The titanium valve is for the High end user(meaning big bucks/Racing)Not very cost effective for a daily driver/Weekend racer. You can do like
$um Fun said Change the guides out to run a 7mm stem.On the inatke use a nail head Or you can run a tappered stemed valve.Either will help the flow.(The nail head is a heavier valve) On a street Head you have to check the clearance on the valve guide with a tuliped valve.The Valve guide Boss needs to be shortened.UNLESS you special Order the Valve and tell them Just where you want That tulip to start at.With a Turbo you use a stainless Valve Or a inconel Valve Which can with Stand the Most exstream Heat(1800 degrees)(made for Exhaust Only).

Now as for the hitting water issue, It is More so of a issue IF(??) you deside that you want hardened seats installed in the head then it is the valve size. Even with a stock size Valve If a Deep seat is used You Run a much HIGHER RISK !!!!
of hitting the water jacket.Over Useing a Short seat. And This Becomes more of a issue with the Bigger Valves.This is all Due to the core shift in the heads.
So you have to watch what machine shop you pick.If they have never Played with or have any clue about our L6 heads It could cost you in the long run.Because they could hit water when installing a hardened seat If they go to deep.
BUT that is a risk any shop can find/run into Depending on the CORE shift of that Head,When trying to install a hardened seat.

You can also install a set of Bolt-in lumps which
will help improve the air flow. Even with a stock
size intake valve.

i like to use 1.90 intakes and 1.6 exhausts. the 1.94 seems to be crowded and shrowding the valve. it takes alot of cutting in the chamber to unshroud the 1.94. just my 2 cents

what is your application? turbocharged? how much HP?

For my application i had to buy Exhaust inconel Ferrea valves and Manley severe duty valves (1.60 11/32 +.100 and 1.94 11/32 +.100)

Ok, there are several problems to avoid then.
Machining too deep for insert bigger valve seats and too much bigger valves can reach the water jacket.
And the reduced guide boss length if using tuliped valves, correct?

T6 said:
"You can do like
$um Fun said Change the guides out to run a 7mm stem.
On the inatke use a nail head Or you can run a tappered stemed valve.
Either will help the flow.(The nail head is a heavier valve)
On a street Head you have to check the clearance on the valve guide with a tuliped valve.
The Valve guide Boss needs to be shortened."

I don't know what is nail head or tappered stemed valve.
Is straight stemed the same of tappered stemed?
I took a look in the Manley products guide at the valves section
and think that my choose should be Street Flo or Street Master 1.94 & 1.60 valves.
But what is the best one for airflow?
The tulip is the valve that doesn't have the straight stem, right?
And it may cause some problems with the valve guide?

Manley 10765-8 & 10722-8 or 10749-8 & 10776-8?
If I choose the valves above,
can the machine shop do 4 valve angle job on them (trying to follow Leo Santucci's book)?

T6, I have the money and still want ( need! ) you Bolt-in Lumps!
How can I buy it? Did you talk to your friend? Pvt msg me.

Thanks a lot, Hank, $um Fun, Larry T6, tlowe and Edy!

The Tappered stem is better for the Intake. The tuliped valve Or a straight stem Is better for the exhaust. (over a tappered Valve stem)
And No the tuliped valve does Not tapper down It is a little wider, Then that of a straight stem.
A nail head Valve Pretty Much looks Just like
what the name says A NAIL.
Did you get the Reply Email with his email address. He has been waiting to hear from you.
So you two can work things out.Shipping and all.

Why titanium valves aren't good for turbo applications?

The titanium valve will not take the heat & will fail.
Mainly the exhaust valves,, we are talking about.

MBHD

Even if we just use the car for Drag Racing?? Because the titanium valves are pretty lighter than the stainless ones...

Do you remember that Brazilian Drag Race Car, with paxton Set Up and Nitrous?? It´s now running a Blown 400cid Chevy Small Block V8! I know the guy that bought the old chevy 6 cyl engine of this car...

It uses Titanium Valves on the stock head and a weird set up on bottom... 3.940" journal cranckshaft (custom build by Crower), 3.390" pistons (!!!!!!) and 5.7" rods! This car made 1.200 hp on the engine, but the engine was not durable...

Probably might be OK to use titanium valves just for drag racing,, that's a maybe.

MBHD

So buying used titanium valves is probably a big mistake, right?
One interesting thing I read about titanium valves at Manley Products Catalog at page 42:
"3- Standard alloy exhaust valves should always be used in low compression (under 12:1) oval track applications."
Another thing is the heat operating range diagram in page 3 about Stainless Steel Valves - I think we must follow it for the right use. Looking that we can see that we must know the engine's temperature range use before buying the ss valves. For titanium should be the same.
So, what is the temperature range for a 9.5-10:1 Chevy 250 L6 on gas?
Am I thinking right about temp & use?

Buying used anything is a risk.
Unless you know personally how long & type of use those used titanium valves have gone through, I would avoid them.
Nascar teams throw used ones out all the time, can't afford to chance them breaking.

Titanium valves,,how much RPM do you plan on spinning your engine to?

Unless you are turning super high RPM, titanium is not necessary.

MBHD

Hank,
After your tips, I decided to run stainless steel valves on my 6000-6500 RPM street car.
I have new questions now:
May I use bronze valve guides with stainless steel valves without any problem?
Does it worth its cost?
Thanks a lot!!!

I would use bronze guides w/your stainless valves.
It is worth the cost,causes less wear on your valves,& lubricates better.

MBHD

Ok, but does it need a special lash between the ss valves?
I read something about that using bullet-nose bronze valve guides is better and cheaper than to work the valve guide area.
Is it a nice thing to remove all the valve guide in the L6 head and use this bullet-nose ones?
Thanks again!

I would not remove the guide(cast iron)
Just get pressed in thin wall bronze guides.
No special lash. Do you mean valve guide clearance?
Approx .001 is fine for most applications.

The problem that the inline 194-292 cylinder heads have is that the guides are too short. Causing the guides to wear pretty quickly esp w/higher valve spring pressures.

You are not going to gain any more flow by installing the bullet nosed bronze guides over a contoured cast iron one boss w/bronze inserts.

Biggest & best gain is going to be installing the lump ports or having Sissell automotive do your head.With his lump ports.

So,,, that mod alone should be your first choice,it is sorta expensive,but that is where you are going to get your biggest gain.
HP is all in your cylinder head,if your head does not flow that good, then your engine will not make that much HP.

MBHD

Ok, I will install thin wall pressed in bronze guides. I understand now that they can give a longer (and easier) life for the valves, but want use them to help improving airflow.
To improve airflow I bought Larry T6's lumps and will install it for sure. I earned a junkyard head now - small crack between valves - and will learn a lot with it. I'll cut it in pieces so I can see it better and plan what to do in my car's head before actually working on it.
Think it's a good idea to cut it.
I'll order this week the ss valves and will take it to a machine shop to do a 4 angle valve job on it. It's a good thing to improve airflow too.
I read in a book to do an 14 degree angle cut in the chamber to improve airflow - but it was talking about a V8 head. So I still don't know if it will be possible. And also don't know how much it will cost, so I am just wondering if you have heard or did something like that already?
Buying a head gasket to see chamber to gasket matching and what is possible to do is the next thing that I'll have to do.
Thanks!

Cutting up a head is a good reference,just remember all heads are not the same so there are core shifts.
Meaning, just beacause one cyl head you can install 1.9" valves & not hit the water jackets does not mean you can do the same on another head.

Just be safe on what size intake valves you install,I installed 1.90 intakes on my 194 Cyl head,w/no problems, you can put 1.88" valves(cut down 1.94 Chevy valves )or even 1.85" would be fine ,to be safe.

Some people put 1.94 valves in,but that shrouds the intake valve & you will need to open/unshroud the combustion chamber to get it to flow good.

I say 1.90 -1.88 to play it safe. But that's just my opinion,ask Larry T6 what he thinks for a safe size valve to use,he also has a lot of cut up heads to go by.

I will try & find some valve grind angle & seat angles when I get a chance.

But,,, since you are in Brazil,, & inline Chevy sixes seem popular, I think a cylinder head shop there should know something,,,maybe?

Just, remember ,when porting, do not make your intake any larger(for the most part)
You are trying to bring the intake port volume smaller, not bigger.
It's mainly about the bowl areas,short turn & long turn radius's & the entry just below the valve seat area, Bernoulli's principle.

MBHD

Hank,
First of all, thanks for your attention.

I was told here in Brazil to use 25°, 30° and 45° in the valves, and 15°, 45° and 60° in the head for the intake. For the exhaust, 20°, 35° and 45° in the valves, and 35°, 45° and 55° for the head. The seat width is about 0.060" for intake and about 0.080" for exhaust, using 1.94" and 1.60" valves respectively. Here they prefer Manley Race Series SS valves also.
I was told too to use a 55cc head (we have it for our ethanol engines).
Yep, I want the "throat" smaller to obtain a velocity gain. So come the lumps. Just for curiosity: here is the most common thing to do the opposite. They almost everytime open the ports to the maximum limit. That I won't do.
It's the carburetor operation principle - venturi - that when the fluid goes from larger area to smaller area the velocity increases. So in the ports. Sure there is a limit too.
But I want to do a chamber angle job - I read it helps air get into cylinder smoothly. Heard that some guys here did it, but they don't share they're experiences with me.
The guy from the machine shop that will do my head work sure knows something about it, but he won't tell me - here in Brazil, information is not shared for free. Everybody wants to take advantage from the others. Stupid thing, I know.
Another important thing to do is match the intake manifold to the head. But it's important to leave around 0.020" all the way around in the manifold to allow this step create a slight turbulence wich pick up fuel droplets and help keep fuel in suspension.
Polishing chamber roof and walls is another thing very common here. I don't like the idea of mirror finish intake ports, but guys here do this a lot in race engines. It doesn't work good in ethanol engines at low RPMs - sure.
Matching the exaust port to the exhaust pipes is currently missed. But I'll do that because seems important.
Thanks again!

Just remembered.
Why not use the newer cast iron 12 port head from a newer Chevy pick up?
I heard the last year was 1997?
But I heard it is limited to about 500HP, more than that it starts to crack.Thin casting.

I do not know much about that cylinder head,but I assume it flows a lot better than the siamesed ports of the older engines.

Never heard of having a mix match of ports for better turbulence.When there is a mismatch,it will make the intake port to act smaller than it really is.But If they say it works better???

As far as polishing, not necessary, it's really just for looks(for cosmetics)It is not really needed,unless there is an obstruction or things of that nature.

One more thing, are you going to turbocharge your inline 6?
If so,,, you can open up your intake ports more because your turbo will be forcing air/fuel into your engine where intake port velosity is not as important as a normally aspirated engine.

MBHD

No, I'll run normally aspirated for now.
I had a 250 turbocharged five years ago and it was very nice. Funny and streetable 350hp. Now I want to go n.a. for a while. Maybe at the end of next year...
I read at "How to Build, Modify & Power Tune Cylinder Heads" book about matching ports to manifold. Don't know if they're right, but it makes sense for me at low RPMs. Some guys do. Majority don't.
To open up the ports for turbocharged is ok, but a lot do it in n.a. engines too.
Have now: an Engine 4-barrel intake (same as Clifford, but made here in Brazil), a Holley 600cfm DP with a pair of Percy's adjust-a-jet, also bought Holley tuning parts, Edelbrock 1/2" phenolic spacer, Taylor Spiro Pro 10.4 Race wire, Accel Super Coil, NGK Iridium IX spark plugs, 6x2 tube headers 2", etc.
Will buy soon: Isky 270H cam & complete kit (shims, lifters, springs, retainers, etc.) and Manley valves. Maybe roller rockers...
After buying those parts and do the head & valves job, as well as installing the carb & other goodies, I expect to have a real nice ride.
I don't know how much horsepower or torque it will have. I want a just-for-fun-on-the-weekend car, fast and streetable.
I took a look at this 270H cam profile and ploted also something in Dyno2003 software. I won't run more than 6000 RPM probably, but it must reach the redline as faster as possible.
I don't know if I am in the right track, help me if not.
Thanks!!!

Chevy 250 &261,,
Now, the headers,,6x2 what is that ?
2" primary tubes?The tubes attached to the cylinder head?

How much does your car weigh?
What is your rear end gear ratio?
Manual trans or automatic? Stall on converter?
Your intake is a little big for the street use,I think.
Sure,it might make more power on the top end over an Offy intake,but you are loosing a lot of torque & torque is what moves your car,,,, & for the street,,,torque is king!!!

You can use your intake if you have the right combination,like higer compression 10-1, manual trans, or auto w/a looser converter like 2600 RPM for your cam selection.

I am a firm believer in side draft Webers,DCOE's,
over any single four barrel inatake.
With Webers,you can run a bigger cam & not lose torque as you would from a single four barrel.
The engine will rev quicker & smoother.

But if you have an OPALA,you do not have room to use those?
Next best thing are the IDA downdraft Webers or carbs that are about the same as Webers.
You can get those intakes & carbs in Brazil ,correct?

MBHD

Hi, Hank!
I know. Sorry. 6x2 is a Brazilian expression for 6 primary pipes going into 2 secundary pipes.
My header is 1 7/8" primary tubes and 2" secundary tubes. They are the ones used in the seventies on the race tracks here. I know they are bigger than they should be, but they work very good. They will work better when I had my new setup. You can see pics of it in the "Inliners Rides" - Alex's Brazilian Opala. I wrote something about it too. It wheights about 2600-2700lbs. I'm using it's stock 4-speed manual transmission and it's stock 3.07:1 ratio rear end.

Weber carbs are much more expensive here. I bought the Holley from the US, as well as Percy's things, Holley tuning parts, Edelbrock spacers, etc, and the total price was about 1/3 as will cost here 3 webers. Guys run a lot 3 webers in street/strip Opalas here. But it's unusual to see 4-barrels. The most used is a stock 2-barrel. It's a carb made specially for Opala and works incredibly.

You also will see in the pictures that - yes, I agree again - there is "almost" no room for nothing in Opala. I don't know exactly how to install the 4jet intake and carb - I'll have to adapt & change a bit the master cylinder location. Shortening its support and make it in angle should work. But don't know yet. I'm waiting the intake to come before.

P.S.: my father here have a strange car. It was made only here in Brazil in the total of 76 cars. It's called Uirapuru and is a sport car. Has a 261 c.i. Chevy motor runing 3 SU HS4 carburetors with tube headers and Isky performance cam. I can post pictures of intake and carbs here. Does someone use something stranger than that?

Thank!!!

Douglas said to fit side draft Webers,you need to remove the brake booster.
Install a manual disc master cylinder,one w/a smaller piston, than the original w/power assist.
1 7/8",,,,primary tubes,,, that is really big!!!
Personally I would only use that for a strip car ,not a street car.
You are losing too much low end torque w/that size primary tubing.Wow!!

If you get a chance to race someone w/a simular build as yours,but has Webers,, let us hear about the race.
The 600 Holly DP is OK.
You have one thing going for you,, your car is pretty light.

307 rear gears are a litle taller(numerically lower) than what I would run for a street car.
Can you get other ratios for it?

You say you are going to have a new set-up, what is your new set-up going to be?
Thanks

MBHD

Chevy 250&261:

I had the 3 Webers 45mm DCOE in my Opala when it was a street car (the same car that is now been build for Strip).
I just take off the Brake booster and use only the master cylinder... The break pedal became pretty hard, but the "breaking potencial" just stay the same. Just got my right leg larger because that... (just kidding)

I´ll try to find some pictures of the 3 weber configuration and the 4bbl configuration to post here. No need to worrie about Room... You´ll see!!

About the transmission and rear end ratio, I was using a Dodge (AAARRGGHHH!!!! :p )Charger RT Transmission (Clark 4-Speed) with Dana 44 Rear End with 3,54:1. Good combo for street...


Tell us more about what you´re planning to do...

BTW, for the Brazilian Guys, I have here a Set of Manley Race Flow 1.94 and 1.60 Stainless Steel Valves Brand NEW to sell... :rolleyes:

Douglas,
have you ran your Opala car @ a track w/the Webers & with a four barrel set-up?

MBHD