Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance webrodder stroker series

I am starting a new thread here on our 235/261 stroker. There have been several comments on different threads asking about the series. So, here it is: Doc Frohmader has posted the first of his series on how to stroke a 235 and a 261. go to www.webrodder.com to see them. I feel lucky to have a small part in it, and it has been fun to see it come together. We are a long way into it, but he is intentionally spacing the series so we dont get into a time issue if something goes south. And we have already had a couple glitches in the crank grinding - see installment 3 and you can read about how my 235 crank went. It all worked out, but we all learnaed something.

So follow along as he shows some other tricks to get otherwise worn out 235's and 261's back on the road. its cool

6inarow,

Thanks for staring the new thread, but don't give up on the 235 cylinder head topic. Will you be flow testing the head, before and after any porting or valve modifications? I have never seen a good report on such, or how the 235-261 heads compare to the 250-292 heads or, even more interesting, to the "Wayne" 12-port head.

We hope to flow test both heads. The idea is to keep it to a minimum on cash. Frohmader thinks these are expensive enough to build, so he wants to show things the average guy can do at home to help get a bit of real horsepower and then document it and show how it turned out. Might wind up with egg on our face, but I'd be willing to bet they surprise a few people.

Its pretty cool to see how all this work happens before the article hits the web page.

Very Nice. Any guesstimate on the date for the next installment? A pure SWAG would be fine.
Thanks

Next installment looks to be in a couple weeks. For the 235 all the crank stuff done and the block is being bored right now. We have the prototype balancer and the new pistons there. For the 261, the crank will be a bit different and it is being ground right now. All of the block work is done on both engines with the exception of the 1 piece rear main and that is on the shelf for Thurdsay. Frohmader may have another installment or 2 ready before all this is completed though.

So a SWAG is 2 weeks..... Should I keep you posted on the board like this?

Well, I see Frohmader made a liar out of me. He just posted the crank article for my 235. You get to see the goof we had too.

I know he has some other stuff ready to post, but we are working on the rear main, the boring and the cylinder heads as we speak. so I dont know what is next - stay tuned!!

Offset grinding of the crank removes the hardened bearing surface (at least from one side). Was the crank treated to reharden the bearing journals?

Just read all four articles. Outstanding information. Well written.

Jason, here is the response I got regarding the crank question:


Hardening is rarely done on cranks meant for the street. In the
case where the cranks are cast, they are made from a hardenable cast
type material and the metal is pretty much the same all the way
through. In forged cranks there were some that were hardened but these
were generally engines meant for abuse, such as trucks or hi-po. You
will see some diesel cranks hardened, as well as those destined for
nitrous or blowers - all for the same reason. In these engines the
cylinder pressures developed (big explosions) are high enough where
surface treatment is considered warranted.
It does not appear from the traces normally left behind that the
Stovebolt cranks were hardened.
My crank grinder does a LOT of these for everything from street uses
to racing and has never had a problem with a crank based on surface
hardness. He does check the Rockwell hardness on the stroked cranks to
make sure there are no soft anomalies that could create problems, though.
I'd suggest that if someone is not convinced by this that they get
the hardening done for peace of mind. It certainly can't hurt and I
know some grinders who regularly harden (nitride) cranks for this reason.

Interesting.

Wait until they hit the dyno

How can you tell if a crank has been hardened?

I have one Reo six which has very distinctive blueing around each it's jornals; I assume that this is evidence of the induction hardening process?

From what Frohmader's crank guy said today, the blueing is indicative of the hardening process used for that crank.

Thanks.

Jason

Yeah Jason, I got quite and education in this crank grinding stuff. Evidently there are several ways to harden cranks depending on how the cranks are made.

We had 2 crank grinders do the cranks for this project. Mention this "offset grind" stuff and they go crazy with opinions. It boils down to 2 options: full cheeks and partials. The last article showed my 235 crank - I had no problem with not having full 360 degree cheeks. Doc's 261 will have them so everyone can see both options.

When they looked into the REO crank, it came back that the blueing was how those cranks were hardened. But there are multiple ways to do it. pm me and I can give you both crank guys if you want the details - or better yet - follow along and you can see both shops referenced in the articles. Not sure when the 261 crank article will be posted, however.

Stay tuned.

Hi 6inarow

Great articles on two cool projects. Are these destined for paper publication at some point?

regards,
stock49

I believe the articles are available for purchase. Maybe they need to go into 12PN

Look for another article this week. It should be on the 1 piece rear main seal

Schmanski/Frohmader Inline Part 6,Rear Main Seal is now posted om webrodder. I personally am getting an advanced education from this series.
Read,reread and read again.

Good stuff.

Any Idea when the next install will be? I read 5 about the 'new' rear main. Sounds like a heck of an idea. Is the next one the welded (for reduced rod side clearance) crank?

I don't see part 6. Only goes to part 5.

We have several articles almost ready. Frohmader has been m.i.a. for the past 6 weeks or so. When he gets back, the next couple installments will be ready to go shortly. I know the other crank article is one of them. We have still been working on both projects, but want to be doubly sure everything is right before they are published.

I appreciate the effort. Please don't misunderstand and think I was complaining. I was just wondering what was next, and when it might be out.

I can definetly appreciate the desire to get it right, thank you.

Oh, Nexxussian, it did not come across as complaining at all. I think its great that there is ANY interest in this sort of thing. I have thought about this stroker stuff for quite a while and it wasn't until Frohmader approached me that I found anyone who had the desire to see it through. As I have said, it might be a collosial failure of the grandest proportion - but it might not be either. Either way, I am going to have a stroked 235 with some trick features. What they hey - its been fun so far

6inarow,

I'm also really looking forward to the rest of the series, as I have a 261 in my garage that is begging me to rebuild it as a stroker.

Well, I have an ulterior motive. My dad used to have a '53 Chevy Bellair Hardtop Convertible (Sports Coupe??). I am trying to come up with one on the cheap for him (he doesn't know, so lets keep it a secret). I expect whatever I find for a car will have a bad engine, so I want to put the best torqy inline in it, that looks original (excepting the speed parts) that I can afford (261 with extra stroke sounds like the ticket). We have a small case 700R4 and all the HD stuff to go in it already. I have 2 8" Fords and 1 8.8 Ford that might work for open drive (I'll have to measure somehow) I haven't gotten the other projects I have far enough along that I can even consider getting the car now, but I have always tried to gather parts ahead of time, I always figured it cost less that way (cause then you aren't in a hurry).

Nexxussian, reagrding the engine, we are trying to accomplish 2 things with this stroker. We want to keep the cash to a minimum as these things get way too expensive anyhow. Some have already said that this stroker is too expensive - and we won't fight that battle. Yep, its gonna cost you more than a 350. But everything on this engine costs more - its inherent on the engine, not the process. The other thing we want to do is keep the excess parts down to a minumum. Nothing worse than having to buy a complete engine because you need an oil pan. We hope to use as many cheap off the shelf parts as possible. For fun we are also going to show some really cool special parts too - some parts aren't so cheap, but they are cool (for instance the 2 groove balancer - it aint cheap, but its the best balancer out there). So, it boils down to being another option for the 235/261. I hope it works. email me or p.m. me if you have any specific questions. I'll try to answer them or forward them to Frohmader.

No hurry, right now I don't know what it is that I don't know.
Thank you very much, hope I will have intelligent and articulate questions when the time comes.

#6 installment is on Webrodder (seach stoveoblt stroker and go to the second page of results). I just read it. Probably been there a month or more, but I just found it. Excellent read. Lots of info and the details are helpfull. Thank you for writing it 6inarow.

Doc Frohmader did it all.

Well, thanks to him then.

Just saw installment 7 and 8 of the Stovebolt Stroker series over at Webrodder. More of Doc's usual quality work.

I am enjoying reading this seies and learning some excellent info about rebuilding the 235 applicable to other sixes as well. I just wish webrodder offered a print version to download this series.

Well its how Frohmader earns a living, so I dont blame him for charging. I wish he had a little cooperation and it might have made it in the 12 port news.

Bottom end of the 235 is coming soon. I'm working on the head as we speak.

Okay. Well that's fine to. But,I must have missed a link to purchasing articles off of Webrodder.

I figured on buying a copy of the series when it is finished. Or am I supposed to buy them as he goes?

Hi Nex - I dont know the answer to that question. The long and the short of it, is that is how Frohmader gets paid - sales of articles. In the past, he has been ripped off by particular groups by unauthorized photocopy of his material. By the time it gets through the legal channes, he has nothing to show for his efforts.

We talked over the weekend, and I am still in favor if binding all the articles in a series and selling it as a book. There are about 100 pages done so far with about 200 to go. I am going to do my best to have him include his info on the Pontiac 6 build up he did and maybe his 292 series. Maybe its a good idea, maybe its not - just thinking outloud here. I'm sure if we could get 50 or 75 people to lay out the $50 or so it would take to buy one, he would do it.

But as a group I doent want to be associated with ripping him off as has happened in the past.

So, Inliners, how about it?? Is there any interest in committing to a book for this? I'd pay $50 in advance to get it. Anyone else? Comments? Moderators, should this be in Bench racing? Repost if necessary.

Count me in, Tom

I'm in.