Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing Ethanol, E85 for fuel ???

Dear Bill;

Your concerns are important points to consider in this isssue and were lucky to have you in our group to present them.

The "doom & gloom" folks in Berkly, Ca. were who I was refering to.

Archer Danials will be the "big kid on the block" with this like you say, but the 'small guy' will play major role as well.

Perhaps BLM lands can be used (free), maybe 'tax incentives' (income) will play a role. Don't the Oil Co.s make fertilizer? The growing of (non editable) corn must be cheaper than, that for human consumption. What if the (final)product were 'picked up'from the farmer?? I don't know.

I do know that; you & your neighbors can/will figure it out somehow.

What kills the farmer is the 'unstable sale price' or timely need of the product, Right?? With a constant need/price for the (non editable) corn, this goes away, Yes/No?? Not my field.

We won WWII in the 40s. We rebuilt Japan and Europe in the 50s. We won the 'space race' in the 60s & 70s as well.

We CAN win this one too.

Big Bill, One of the things that concerns me is the genetically altered corn. In the first Times link that tyb507 provided I was surprised how much they have altered corn. There was a big brau ha about several years ago about genetically altered corn hadn't heard much till now. Is there any interest in organic farming your way.

Larry

Larry, Its not a very pretty piston is it,I don't know why I was thinking it was going to be a forged piston.
Is the one on the left a forged piston or did you give it a massage?

So its a 9:1 piston with what CC head?

I'm not to sure about welding up the dish, for some reason the just doesn't sound good.

Can you deck the block and head to bring it up a little bit more?

vince

Both the the right and left are cast pistons. As for looks all I can think of is a difference in what they may used to finish them with after machining. The one on the left is the same material hypereutetic [sic]. Didn't massage it.

9:1 with a stock 74 CC head. If you unshroud the valves then you would be less than that. I would like to be at about 10.5:1 with a stock head. Then 10 CC change in the head one way or the other will get 1 point change.

The welding idea didn't sound real good to me either. It looks like the only way get a flat top piston is to go forged. I am looking at another cast piston for a GM 366 CI V8. The problem with it is the pin dia. is .9898 compared to the 292 which is .9273 and compression height 2.16 to 2.009. There doesn't look like there is enough meat on the piston end of the to offset the bigger pin. Even if there is it still means milling 80 thou off the top of the piston. Anyone interested in a set of pistons. (I know not here)

I've checked the deck and with the old pistons I'm at .072 and Leo Santucci says don't take off more than .030. I've already figure that into my calculations.

I really don't like going forged form this application, it's basically a street machine. A cast piston should handle the compression with out a problem. These cast pistons were not cheap. I'll check with Keith Black about finish machining the 366 to the 292 spec. If I don't get a NO from K. Black the price will still probably be bite the bullet and order forged.

Larry

If there is enough meat on the Rod. You could have it honed out for the Bigger Wrist pin.
And if the Pistons Have the groove for a snap ring You could? float them in the rod.

Just a little food for thought.

In regards to pistons And compression ratio I read an article in a magazine a couple of years ago about getting more horse power out of a V-8 by going to longer rods (5.7 up to 6.2)which increased the dwell time at top dead center,giving a longer burn before the piston started down I think they was using a ford rod with a special piston that had the wrist pin relocated. Now what I am wondering is there a longer rod out there that could be resized to fit a 292 then run stock V-8 pistons to match the bore. I'm certain that this would take some time in a spec book for rods to check it out, but it MIGHT Work and it might give a major torque increase. Also if this could be figured out and if it increased output and kept dependability you would become famous in your own time for figuring it out. Hows this for a thought? If you think about how many of the things we do to a 250 came about after somebody probably said it couldn't be done, People like Leo and others had to prove that it could and would work. As we know we have sixes running better than a lot of V-8s in a world where

Well I still dob't know what is causing my computer to post something before I tell it to but it has happened again. To finish my sentence in the last post in a world where everybody knew a six could never out run a V-8
Big Bill

Well I guess they just don't make pistons like they use to.

Too bad they don't fit the 250.

I like the full floating idea.

A little longer rod sounds like something to maybe look into. I wonder is a set of reworked rods cheaper than custom pistons.

So they will only make forged pistons to your spec's and not cast pistons,thats a bummer.

vince

They wouldn't be any good on a 250 either, not for compression anyway.

I checked with the machine shop today and there is not enough material to that far oversize and take any abuse with a heavy piston. To bush them you would have to even further since they are a press fit now. These guys seem to be pretty sharp andmost helpfull. My confidence factor is growing the more I work with them.

According to theory a little longer rod will get more RPM. Right now I'll just settle for a combination that works. It's going to take me a while to collect, sort, and figure the combinations.

I'm not real sure what the process is for both cast and forged. I know that they both start with a rough form and then machine it. I don't see why you couldn't start with a rough casting and machine it slightly different. I guess these days you have to consider liabilities. I'm sure Silvolite wouldn't sell a rough casting and the CNC program go with it.

Larry

The piston (MFG) may take the position that; Our ideas don't follow the "mainstream thinking" now days. Also, with the higher compresson and probable higher RPM usage, cast pistons are prone to failure, making them 'look bad' etc.

There probably is a way to heat & stretch a rod(s) to work. This too would be prone to failure @ high RPM.

Aries or Ross is the way to go today. These units are expensive but won't fail under most circumstances etc.

Gook luck to all.

Its always nice to find a shop that is friendly and know what their doing.

The guy I use to use moved back to the Carolina's and builds Nascar motors. I can't remember what team he went to work for.

Now I have no idea who to use or should I say trust.

Actually by the time I unshroud the valves and polish the chambers the compression might be alright.

vince

G10-250, Give Gary a try at Champion Motors, at 1068 Florence Way in Campbell. He does good work and there are folks that trust him with some very rare motors.

Larry

Hello What I am wondering is there a rod the right length made for some other engine that would be the right length and could be safely resized, pin and bearing wise to allow use of Small block chevy pistons in a 292. What is the exact rod length of a 292 and how far is the wrist pin below the piston deck, then what is the wrist pin to piston deck on a small block chevy the difference would give the rod length needed. I know that many performance motors have been built using rods from a totaly different motor and I wonder if this is possible for a 292. Crank journals could be turned slightly smaller or welded up and made slighty larger. even wrist pin bores in pistons could be honed slighty larger to fit a different pin. This would take some research to figure out but it might be possible. To the best of my knowledge know one has ever changed the length of an existing rod successfully more the a few thousands.
Te article I was talking about was in HotRod magizine a few years ago and they claimed to be getting 400 plus hp and still be very streeetable.
Just me thinking
Big Bill

Thanks Larry I'll have to go by there and talk to Gary.

big bill, I've been wondering the same thing about using different rods. It would take some researh but there might be some thing out there
that might work with the right piston to achieve the desired compression ratio.

vince

Big Bill, There are alot of things that can be done to make the rod fit. Here are the 292 rod measurements, length 6.76, pin .9273, crank journal 2.1, bottom end width 1.050. The piston compression hieght 2.009. We looked briefly for another rod when I took the pistons back. The F*rd 300 looks good except the crank journal is about 3 inches. If this was a competition or record machine everythingyou say would be considered. Since this is a street machine I don't want the cost to exceed the cost of a set of forged pistons and reconditioned rods. In Leos' book he mentions a Sportsman rod with 7.0 lenght, that would be perfect with a 283 piston. I'm going to email Armond, II to see if he can get the mfg. of the rod in Leos' book. I haven't been able to find an online catalog for connecting rods. I'm going to go by the machine shop and see if they will order one for me. btw United Engine and Machine Co. (Silvolite?)
http://kb-silvolite.com/spistons.php?action=details&S_id=231
have there catalog of pistons online. There are quite a few pistons in the bore range to choose from.

Larry