Inliners International Forums General Discussion Bench racing Increase in ethanol

It seems the new energy bill just passed may affect the old car hobby---what is the current pecentage they are puting in the fuel now? If there is an increase in percentage what will happen to our old cars---will they run OK or are we going to be forced to buy some upgrade so our cars will run??

HI 52er : Not sure about the exact answer to your question , but along those lines , I called " Eastwood " to ask if the new fuels will dissolve the gas tank ( epoxy ) kit I got from them . His answer was , absolutely NO problem . FLEET

I am pretty sure you can run higher compression w/ethanol.

MBHD

I'm gonna' drive my '53 pick-up! With help from the minds here we'll deal with it. That doesn't mean we should sit back and be victimized by the 'Green Goons"! I ONCE ran my Morris Miner into town(Sonora) on Kerosene. It didn't like it.

What should we expect to replace to run comfortably on Ethanol? Seals, O rings...?

Ethanol is not a viable option. The green guys are already attacking the increased growing of corn by protesting increased nitrogen levels in water blamed on run off from farm land. Funny how golf courses and private jets don't cause problems. Methane makes more sense,but I don't think there will be a single answer to this problem. It wasn't that long ago that our old cars were doomed by unleded fuel. We survived that! Thank God we have old guys with experience,young guys with interest,and both with a love for this old crap!

Amen, BOTP.

To run on 100% Ethanol (Or any other Ekly) a different needle valve & gasket will be in order i think. And more maintance will be in order because elky can be more corrosive, If it is let to just sit in a carb & fuel lines. You can run more compession.But you may also need bigger
jetting.

Let's distill our own alchohol and we'll all run on Nitro!

RapRap
1940 ChoppedChevyCoupe

You do have to run larger jets, about 30% larger. From what I've found out you may have to change more than needle and gasket, there could be problems with gas tank, rubber fuel lines, carb disintegrating, and who knows what else. Considering the price of gas, and my compression being 11.0 to one I may just get a drum of ethanol and report on what happens.

Larry

Gentlemen;

As I recall It's 15-18% & to be added to current gasoline formulas etc.

Bio-diesel is a far better move. It runs our trains & 'big rigs' coast to coast, grown in the mid-west and requires little refining with no new infra-structure.

The American Farmers were the 'unsung heros' of WWII and they can/should do it agian. They just need to "get it done" W/O federal money, using 'private sector' investiments.

Three words come to mind here; "hit it tiger".

Things in the agricultureal world are a lot different today. During the war about half of the population lived on farms or small towns. Today less than 1% of our population is involved in agriculture. The old familes that got us through the war have mostly been forced out by developers and taxes. Add to that the growth of corperate farms,foregn owened farms ,enviromental laws.and foregn demand for farm products. Wheat is going for record prices because China can afford it,They are turning their farmers into factory wokers. If any one can do it I wish them well!

What concerns me is the fact they increase the percentage this year and you have adjust you car to run OK, then next year they do it again and so on. They nickle and dime ya to death with the changes where eventually you have to convert the whole fuel delivery system---money-money, what a bunch of crooks. Let`s face it they want to get rid of our "poluters" and if you asked any of them about how the internal combustion engine works--they don`t have a clue----ethanol is not the answer for us in the old car hobby, for that matter even in our daily drivers....

Well there's plenty of land to use & lots of workers from Mexico.

Perhaps a "share croping" arangement similar to the 'reconstruction era.

We (the country ) can't wait any longer.

Happy trails.

52er you've touched on a few good points. I don't think you will see a change in mix any time soon. The 15% Ethanol in gas is enough to cut the emissions. The 15% gas in Ethanol (E85) is enough that you so you don't have to prime the motor to start it. Ethanol not being good for old cars is correct, will cause the performance to suffer and the mpg to decrease by about 30%. You can get back part of the performance and mpg by raising the compression 4 points which will get you about 15%. My machine pointed out to me when I was looking for longer rods for my 292, The rods in the older motors were not designed for high compression.

Larry

John, I agree we have plenty of both and we should do something. The issue is not a shortage of fuel it`s a shortage of drilling and refineries. A small minority wants us to go Green and they don`t care about prices or the economy. Gasoline is still the best fuel out there and the cheapest. I would use ethanol if it was really cost effective---if it wasn`t subsidized they wouldn`t make the stuff. It`s driving up the cost of food. I think they can utilize the people in the auto industry and come up with better fuel economy. Heck an LT-1 in a Buick Roadmaster gets 21 mpg.To think ethanol is going to fill the gap is a dream. If I could trust that the powers to be would leave us alone and give us the oppertunity to have the fuel we need to run in our cars I might concede. I know there is non-oxy fuel here--but how long?? We better keep an eye on these guys or someday it may get to costly to have an old car. Sorry about the rant---follow the money!!

Gentlemen;

This is becomming a SNAFU because there are two government agencies about to 'do battle', with our cars & light trucks again.

This has been looming here in California for decades. With the most recent CARB decision to kill the electric car and DMV stoping the "30 year rule" on vehicle SMOG checks.

Throw in the 'global warming' hoax and the fire just gets hoter/lawyers richer.

I predict the EPA (federal agency) will win the day with the new fuel consumption standards. No matter how the rest is debated, that works for everyone & is long overdue.

E-85 & the new standards will just help offset the fuel needed for all the new drivers/vehicles in the future.

Without Bio-diesel in the mid west, NO drop in oil imports is possible and why the D of A will block that too.

Happy trails.

Who is the "we" that has all this land? The federally owned land is not for us to use,it's to look at.That leaves private land,and with the Supreme Court's decision on imminate domain there really is no private property! You just get to use it and pay taxes on it until the government finds a BETTER use for it. You don't really think Exon is going to let a bunch of farmers into the fuel business? Corn uses a lot of nitrogen and that must be replaced in order to grow corn on the same place again. Runoff from fields carries nitrates into rivers and kills fish. Groups of greenies fight each other over this. If there was an easy solution it would,t be a problem!

BOP;

There's literly thousands of (formerly owned) farms all across the USA, that went 'back to the bank' in foreclosers etc.

Probably for the reasons you mentioned.

A friend traveled from Florida to Washington State and was 'amazed' at the vast waste of the farmland, NOT being used across the 'mid-west'.

Right where the trains/trucks run "cross-country".

I've heard that this is throughout the Country too. These family's are going into other lines of business/work like you said.

The Oil Companies own ALL the high mileage carbs and the battries for the electric car too. Let them "put this/our land to use". The standards for (non edible) corn is less than that for humans/animals. Perhaps a hybrid organic--I dno't know, we can't afford to wait any longer on this.

The Farmers can/will know how etc

Happy trails.

Now we get to genetically enginered crops. This is spooky stuff mostly because of intrusion into neighboring fields by altered pollen that Monsanto owns the pattents on. Huge law suits that the real farmers will lose. Our science seems to create more problems than it solves. But John I hope you are right and I'm just freaking out!

BOP;

I've personaly seen Tomatoes the size of Voleyballs, in 1985. The vines were grown around special platforms, in a "greenhouse". The grower said they tasted "bland", but when picked "soft Baseball size" they were the same as "normal".*

Here in California; we were about to get another (SMOG lie) tax extortion, when the EPA made It's ruling. Now the Lawyers/Courts have it.

Time will tell; In the 'meantime' we all pay the price, one way or the other.

Happy trails.

(*) That would be a 'golf ball' size kernel of corn and taste wouldn't matter.

Pop cprn on the cob! My son drove up from Ventura yesterday. Have a Merry Christmas!

You guys have hit on one of the confusing complexities of farming. Genetically produced crops that are easier to grow and farmers being paid not grow so much. Kind-a-goofy to me.

Politics work in strange ways, don't they? ;D

Yes and it's worse than we can get into here. The not for food stuff has already made it's way into the food supply. How do you knqw what corn was used to make your canned tomale? The Farm
Bureau won't tell you the represent agrabiz. Mqnsanto owns pattents on ovr 80% of all seeds world wide. Try to find seeds that are not hybred. I'm quiting this it's depressing me! DONE

I'm not going to comment on the politics on this one last time I said anything I got a rude surprise..

Technically either ethonal or methonal (more so) attacks the typical pot metals used in earlier carb's and fuel systems. Hard anodize will help for a while but eventually the metal disolves...

Last summer I got some info regarding CARB that I was asked not to discuss fully - in nutshell they have a budget to find a solution to this problem - but its does not involve keeping carb's on vehicles.....

Personally I'd be quite happy if I could buy E85 locally - it would make a good performance fuel - but with the oil industry owning the province here its not likely to happen any time soon. Last time I filled up here 87 octane was $0.98 per liter ($3.70/US gal.).

efi-diy, Do you have a time reference as to how long it will take to destroy the carb, ballpark guess. I'm sure the time will vary depending on carb. You are the first one that seems to have a good idea of what is going on

It has been recommended to me that the carb be zinc chromate plated, any comment.

Larry

Depends on the alloy used - its a slow process that errodes the metal. I think having the fuel flowing tends to carry away the oxides mentioned in the link and thus speeds up the process.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Try it - get a chunk of a busted carb and methonal and put it in a large jar.

efi-diy, Thanks for the link. I'd looked at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

last year and they don't mention the acidity at all, though there is more to do automotive use. Unfortunately I won't be able to test. I'm going to look into buying a barrel of it tomorrow.

Do you know of any efi motors running ethanol (alcohol) on a daily basis?

Larry

Quite a few folks locally are using methonal under boost to increase the octane of the pump gas - its sprayed in seperately from the pump gas. It also cools the air down considerably, enough that folks are not running an intercooler.

As far as straight methonal, the injectors and fuel systems on the later model engines are typically M85 compliant from a materials point of view so its less of an issue. So 100% is probably doable with minor changes, I'd have to take a closer look at the fuel tanks on the M85 and see what there made out - most likely composite or S/S.

MAybe our Brazilian friends will chime in here they have been running 100% for over 30 years.

Here we go again this is the same discussion that started the problem a while back BE CAREFUL.

As long as we keep our heads and avoid name dropping we should be fine.

We do need to find a solution to keep us running. I also think the answer will come from another country.

Some practical info on compatible materials:

http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/storing-handling-e85.pdf

Check page 14

MY car is melting,my car is melting!

This is the problem CARB is trying to address.... as the alky % is increased older vehicle emmissions will go up due to worn carburators...

Currently, 10% and 85% ethanol is available. In my opinion, E85 is too expensive for the BTUs. I gotta wonder if there isn't a misunderstanding here. Where are you getting the information that there is a mandatory increase in the percentage of ethanol in fuel (ie. >10%). I would have suspected that the energy bill is requiring more gallons of blend, not a greater percentage of ethanol per gallon. It would be impossible to legislate >10% ethanol since the vast majority of vehicles do not support it.

We have been using 10% blend for greater than a decade with no ill effects. The ethanol does clean out rust from fuel tanks. Change fuel filters frequently for awhile and all is fine.

I supplement heat in my house with a corn burning stove. The exhaust is acidic enough to require AL29-4C alloy stainless steel chimney liner. Cost more than the stove...

Minnesota already has a 10% mandatory blend and is thinking of going to 20% by 2013--I am going by what`s going on in Minnesota and with the new Fed bill who knows what might happen. The more ethanol in the fuel costs us as old car hobbiest more money to upgrade so our cars will be compatable with the new fuels. It`s a cost I don`t want to do and I don`t know where it stops. Just one more step to eliminate the old car hobby for the sake of the enviroment. It`s the old saying---"were`re doing this for your own good". Time will tell, then time ran out.

Gentlemen;

I think Jayson's correct & the percentage will stay around 10-15%, with more 'mixed fuel' being made, not a higher percentage etc.

That (of course) is a 'nationwide' probable adverage and the 'mid west' is really where It's needed and they (CARB)* have NO juristiction there.

The EPA doesn't care what they think anyway, even in California.

Hapy trails.

(*) The California Air Resources Board, a State "bureaucarcy" only.

Minnesota will go to 20% after their "studys" come back showing it will do no harm to engines. They always make thier research come back with the findings they want---they all do it. Odds are MN will go to 20% after that. Then they will have another Study to see if 30% is OK---and so on!! Why can`t they leave us alone---the percentage of fuel we burn as a whole doesn`t even put a blip on the radar---so think again, what is their motive.

52er...

Its not us they are after - we're just a causality of a bigger problem. Well you could always run 100LL avgas they won't be able to mess with that the FAA won't let em.

If I were in the USA I'd start searching the wrecking yards for '82 to '84 ford 302's that came with CFI. Looks like a carb but uses 2 standard fuel injectors. Since the bolt pattern is rectangular its a lot more friendly to make adapters for.... The early ones still had a choke plate .