Inliners International Forums General Discussion MOPAR Motor rebuild or swap up?

I'm in the process of gathering some motor parts for El Plymino and decided to look into a rebuild. The truck runs good now but I thought about the dual carbs and headers needing more help for best performance.

Anyway, I was quoted $3500.00 from a local flat head "specialist" to do it. (I take the motor to him). After I got up off the floor I said thank you and I would think about it. The quote was for a stock rebuild.

I live in the Republic of California and understand that such a privilidge requires sacrifices in the form of the highest prices in the Northern Hemisphere. But, I can get a 383 Chevy 350 HP stroker motor off E-Bay that is turnkey for about that much money.

So, I guess I will end up doing it myself or just install the parts I have and see what happens.

Elmer Stange gave me another interesting possibility last night and it is doable in our Plymouths. My reason for not going this route is the lack intake and exhaust options for the 251 motor. But, someone looking for an updated motor might want to consider this option.
In my case, all I would need to do was put my 230 front motor parts on the 251 and modify the front cross member(minor problem) for the additional 2" of length in the 251. Use the 230 bell housing, flywheel and starter. Possibly reverse the radiator and core support and side panels, change rad housing for the 230 style. As a side benefit, the 251 motor seems to have the correct bell housing attached to it for a conversion to a T-5 OD trans. If your not interested in the 12 volt altenator system, them just use your 6 volt parts....
http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/products/special/rebuilt-engine/wm300engine.htm

The motors are tested before delivery to you. Steve (VPW) sez the oil pressures are running 30-35 lbs. Compression 105-110.

Supplies are limited.

ps: Does anyone know if dual carb intakes and headers were ever made for the 251's? I haven't seen anything on the board about modifying these motors.

pps: I finally got my membership and dues off to Eric today. Don




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stuck in the 50's

Look on Vintage Speed web page. They usually have intakes for the 251 from time to time. In looking for a rebuild, look on Rock and Dirt webpage. Last year I ran across a complete long block priced reasonable. Hope this helps.

Don-

I've seen 251 intakes and alloy heads now and then on E-bay, that's where I found my 230 Edmunds intake.

You could have one made by George Asche, like Don Coatney did over on the P15/D24 forum. George fabs them from stock intakes, and can make a dual or triple if your so inclined.

Langdon's is making stainless tube headers now, but there is a bit of a wait.

My 230 rebuild is the in the neighbor hood of $3500, but it is far from stock. I did all of the work asside from the machine shop labor. The Edgy head was $600 alone. Sure a V8 may be cheaper, but at what sacrafice?

Have a look at my site for my engine rebuild.



Pete

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Check out the restoration of my '50 Plymouth here:

http://home.rmci.net/blueskies/plymouth.html

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll check the sites tonight.

Hud I: Now that the season is over, how about some updates on it and pictures of your machine and the motor?

blueskies: I'm familiar with your site. I've enjoyed your build up and the great pictures.
I went ahead and ordered my carbs, HEI distributor and headers from Tom. He takes Corvette headers and has to literally remake them. The difficult part on the wait is you don't know where you are on the waiting list!

Sorry: I can't post this image from my email. Will try another method. Hope it will work.

Up next, I want to find out about the possibily of adding disc brakes to the stock front and rear ends.

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stuck in the 50's
1951 Ply Concord truck
1954 Nash Rambler

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-07-2003).]

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-07-2003).]

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-07-2003).]

Hey man, I'm currently building a 230 for a friends 51 Dodge pickup. He's going to have about 2grand in it complete running. What follows is basically what I did for him.

If I were you I'd build the engine you have in your Plymino now. If it's a 218, find a 230 crank and rods and it becomes a 230. VPW sells them new, but they can be had for much less. Bore the engine to whatever ovesize you feel comfortable with, I go .060 as a rule. The best money you will spend is on balancing the moving bits, worth every penny. Install a high volume oil pump from VPW. You can use your old cam if it's ok, or run a new one, stock is fine.

I have had all the high dollar aluminum heads, intake, headers etc. They are really great, nothing wrong with them, very neat, but not strictly necessary. I sold mine to pay for my complete engine overhaul! I would run the stock head, maybe have it trimmed .050, and deck the block .010. George Asche takes 100K off of his and he's the master. Install head studs, forget head bolts they are the cause of blown gaskets.

Get a 2bbl carb kit and HEI ignition from Tom Langdon at Stovebolt. You will get as much intake as you would from duals without all the balancing headaches and water tubes. The HEI eliminates any ignition problems, period. Convert to 12 volts and run an alternator.

Find yourself a second exhaust manifold and cut the flange off flush with the manifold. Cut a second exit hole in the manifold you will run on your truck. Have the second flange brazed on and you've got dual exhausts for around $30. You can braze the heat riser flap shut if you want true duals, but you don't need to. The idea is to increase exhaust flow, not necessarily to split the exhaust, either way is fine. The old time flathead racers added a second dump and ran open pipes.

If you have a harmonic balancer send it to Damper Dudes and get it redone. Get a new water pump, water tube, hoses, wires, etc. Anybody can assemble the engine if they take their time, read the manuals and double check themselves at every step of the way.

Built this way your flathead will have plenty of power for the street, should be very dependable and require little attention.

Anybody who offers to build you a flathead for $3500, even in California is probably a politician, a thief or both!!!! or maybe just an actor................

I would like to see a picture of your El Plymouth. It sounds interesting. I am in the process of installing a 251 CI big block flat 6 into my 1948 Plymouth. My engine is bored .030” over and I have installed Chevy stove bolt pistons. I also have installed Chevy SS valves. I sent my cam to Earl Edgerton in California and had it reground to 260 duration @ .410” lift both intake and exhaust. I sent my manifold to George Asche in Pennsylvania and he split the exhaust and added dual carburetors. I set up a test bench and have run my engine several hours. Just last week I dropped it into the car. I had to do some extensive modifications to the front saddle and to the radiator bracket. But it now fits like a glove. I have completed modifications to my bell housing to accept a T-5. I have completely rebuilt the transmission and also installed a pilot bearing as opposed to a bushing. I have rebuilt a Dodge 8 ¼” differential with 3.55/1 gears and it is installed in the car. There are lots of avenues to pursue but in my opinion I like keeping the flat six. If you need any details on how I have done any of this let me know.
Don Coatney

Thanks for the input(s). Lots of valuable information to digest.

My motor is a 1955 230 with OD. It has the studs already installed for the head. Also has a split exhaust with dual old time glasspacks. (nice sound too)

So far I have Tom's electric choke carbs, HEI dist. and his T-5 trans adapter kit. I'm on the waiting list for the headers. 12 volt altenator has been ordered along with wiring kit. I'm going thru the T-5 now to see whats needed.

I've seen a little discussion on the board by Hud 1 regarding unshrouding the valves for increased performance but it doesn't seem to be worthwhile or done on inlines much. We used to do it to V-8 flathead Ford blocks in the 60's and then install Oldsmobile valves (Big!) If I had an extra block I would give it a try just to satisfy my curiousity, along with a full race cam.

How would I find George Ashe? He sounds like someone I need to talk to.

Don, do you recall the track width on the 8-1/4 differential you installed and what car it came from? Secondly, is there a performance advantage to using BowTie slugs and valves?

I'm going to try a little different approach to determine what width axle I need because I'm going to run a good size tire in back. I want to get my wheels and tires first. With the old axle removed I plan on locating the tires in the wheel wells for best fit, then taking a measurment off the back of the wheel mounting surface for the correct axle width. Next, look for a MoPar axle that is hopefully very close to that. It would also have to be adaptable to disc brakes.

Once again, if you live in California, the choices are limited because most of the good stuff is long gone.

Don, If you go to www.picturetrail.com/elplymino I have some pictures of El Plymino.
Don

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Stuck in the 50's
1951 Ply Concord truck
1954 Nash Rambler 2 dr
http://www.picturetrail.com/elplymino

Don; I am going to try to post a picture of your car/truck. Guess that did not work. I will have to ask my Arch Race Rival Pete (blueskies) Anderson how that is done. You can contact George Asche at the following. He is not on line.

George Asche Jr.
R.D. 1
Venus, Pennsylvania 16364
(814) 354-2621

Tell him I said hello. What is included in the T-5 adaptor kit? I did not use a kit. I just did it. Got the idea from Bob Criswell who frequents this forum. I made a few refinments to his instillation such as installing a pilot bearing as opposed to a bushing. I will e mail you some information on differentials as attachments.

Don Coatney
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL106/713086/2256408/29930335.jpg



[This message has been edited by Don Coatney (edited 11-20-2003).]

Don, I mis-spoke when I called Toms's conversion a "kit". It consists of a bronze pilot bushing for the rear of crank, a bushing for the throwout bearing, and a thin ring that fits over the front bearing retainer of the T-5.

The ring insures an exact alignment of the trans into the original bell housing. Tom indicates the ring is vital to prevent 5th gear failure. If someones T-5 is behind a V8 or the car will see a lot of hard shifting a beefier bearing retainer can be used.

I may do away with the rear leaf springs and use a coil setup with 4 link. El Plymino already has coils added in the rear in addition to the leaf springs. I suspect they were added to the car suspension because of the added weight to be hauled in the "truck".
If I keep the leafs, then I will probably put them inside the frame rails in order to get the rear end down and improve handling. (El Plymino is no longer a work truck)
The data you e-mailed me suggests that the B body axle is about the only one that is a drop in slam dunk. Now I just have to find one.
Thanks for the e-mail info too. I like the tri-power setup you have on old blue. Very different.


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Stuck in the 50's
1951 Ply Concord truck
1954 Nash Rambler 2 dr
http://www.picturetrail.com/elplymino

Here ya go-



to post a photo that is already hosted else where, just type

[img] + url of image + [/img]

Pete

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Check out the restoration of my '50 Plymouth here:

http://home.rmci.net/blueskies/plymouth.html

Don;
When I had to enlarge the hole in my bell housing to accept the T-5 I used a
magnetic based dial indicator. The magnet base attached to my flywheel with
the whisker of the dial reading the existing hole. I then rotated the
flywheel to locate the true center. What I found was the original hole was
about .012" out of position. I then had my machinist bore the new hole using
the true center I had established with the dial indicator. So I should be
dead nuts on. Better than factory. I also made a front bearing mount to
eliminate the pilot bushing and use a bearing in its place. Now that Pete
has shared the information on how to post pictures I will give it a shot.
Don Coatney

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-2-1-1066010878?m=1&pg=4&ro=1&co=0[/img]

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-2-4-1066366871?m=1&pg=4&ro=1&co=3[/img]

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-4-3-1065494592?m=1&pg=4&ro=3&co=2[/img]

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/2-1-1-1070670960?m=1&pg=1&ro=0&co=0[/img]

[This message has been edited by Don Coatney (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Don Coatney (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Don Coatney (edited 11-22-2003).]

Don: Thanks for the info/pics.

There must be a difference in the hole diameter between the truck bell housing and car bellhousings that requires the ring (.032") that came from Tom? You mentioned having to enlarge the car bellhousing hole or maybe you just did that for matching center lines?

Do you have a pic of the bellhousing with the new holes drilled in relation to the old ones?

I'm going to try and do this with the motor in the truck. Am I crazy!

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Stuck in the 50's
1951 Ply Concord truck
1954 Nash Rambler 2 dr
http://www.picturetrail.com/elplymino

Don;
I probably have a better picture in my files at home but this is the best I can do for now. This shows the top ears I wekded on and the lower hunk of steel added to the bottom. The lower piece is both pinned and bolted from the botton. You are probably correct in the fact that the truck transmission is sized differently than my original 3 speed. I had to enlarge the hole in the bell housing where the T-5 mates up.
Don Coatney

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/2-5-5-1071960411?m=1&pg=1&ro=4&co=4[/img]

I found this picture with details of the bottom hunk of steel I added.

[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-4-5-1066464639?m=1&pg=4&ro=3&co=4[/img]

[This message has been edited by Don Coatney (edited 11-22-2003).]

Don: The nice blue paint hid the new holes on the first pic. Thanks.
Evidently, the truck bellhousing with its cast in motor mounts would not require additional welding as done to your car bellhousing.
I'm not sure the truck bellhousing will bolt up to my 55 block?
Here's Elmer's truck frame with the T-5 bolted up.


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Stuck in the 50's
1951 Ply Concord truck
1954 Nash Rambler 2 dr www.picturetrail.com/elplymino

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by 51 El Plymino (edited 11-22-2003).]

Don;
The setup on Elmer's truck frame sure looks good. It appears he has extended the shift lever. I do not expect to have to do that once I get my transmission in the car. And that should happen the Friday after Thanksgiving. It also looks as if Elmer will have to remove the engine in order to remove the transmission or service the clutch.

As I am assembling a 251 CI Desoto engine coupled to a 218 CI Plymouth bell housing and also using the 218 CI flywheel I had a problem with the starter gear to flywheel alignment. The 251 crankshaft extends into the bell housing about a 1/4' further than the stock unit. So I had to move my starter in towards the flywheel. I milled about 3/16" off of the face of the bell housing where the starter bolts up. This put everything back into alignment. I have ran my engine on a test stand and started it many times with this setup and it appears that everything works well.
Don Coatney
[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-5-4-1066465283?m=1&pg=4&ro=4&co=3[/img]


[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/DonCoatney/5-5-5-1065933871?m=1&pg=4&ro=4&co=4[/img]