Inliners International Forums General Discussion MOPAR wicked flatty

Back in '01 I was on this board under a different user name, talking about building a full race 230 motor. Funny that I pop back up at the same time as the '01 "Let's Talk..." posts that were so motivational for me.
I fizzled out back then, never got going actually, other than getting my extra hot 10 to 1 head from Edgy.
Finally my crank is at the machine shop getting the oiling mods outlined in the aforementioned posts. Next comes the rod work, but I wanted to bounce some ideas off you all first.
In the "Let's Talk..." posts it was suggested that all the squirt holes in the rods be plugged in order to maintain oil at the rods. I understand the function of this, however I was thinking aboutwidening my oil pan, lowering the sump, and fashioning a windage tray. If I remove most of the splash oiling in this manner I am sure to gain RPM and HP potential, but at what cost? If I double that all up with plugging the rod squirt holes am I just asking for trouble?
thanks guys, Cory

Hi cwoerth,.......
I too have a 230 flatty and have pondered some of the mods you suggest. As for HP gain I believe the increase would be small,.....as for long life at high RPM I wouldn't count on it. In another thread someone by the name of Hudson seems to know his stuff about these flattys,........take the time to find his postings, the info is really good.
Let me know how you make out with the mods.
Cheers
Bob.

When we were building the 230 and got to the rods, my macinist recommended leaving the squirt hole open. The holes squirt oil on the thrust side of the cylinder walls. He (machinist) seemed to think this was more beneficial that eliminating them. So we did not close the holes.
The only problem in dealing with flatties is the external heat. The water temp. will remain at a comstant level but the external temp. is higher than I like. The transfer of this external heat to the oil is of concern to me. Starting research and work on a 308 flattie. The external heat issue is to be addressed more fully. Hope this helps.

What do you mean by 'external heat' there, Hud?

And would oil cooling help?

What I am refering to is the external temp. of the engine. The water in the radiator can be cool but the external heat of the engine is very high. Example: After making a run with the 230 the water temp. would be at 190 but you could not hold your hand on the oil pan . I also noticed on my son's 308 that even the fan blades were hot. He is in the process of building a 308 and we have been discussing this issue. Presently talking about using an oil cooler instead of an oil filter or both. The tractor already uses a 6 blade fan but most vehicles only use the 4 blade fan. I don't know if this is an issue or not, because flatties have been running a long time as they came from the factory. Saw one at an auction this weekend in an air compressor and it ran like a sewing machine.

Wouldn't that be more a product of the environment?

Heat not being able to get away from the outside...

Hud I is my Dad, the engine he's talking about is the same engine that was in "Let's talk". We ran across all kinds of rods. Some had the holes in the side, others had holes through the beams to the wrist pins in addition to the yoke holes. The ones that went in the engine are like Pop said, the oil holes in the yoke that sprayed the cylinder were left open.

Alot of water has gone under the bridge since then. At the time of the intial thread, I advocated plugging them up and conserving as much oil as you could in the rod. We were worried about oil loss then, noting previous failures in the rod journals when spun up to high rpms. Pop's cross drilling did away with that and oil delivery is not a problem.

If you are going to drive the flathead alot, I'd say the cylinder oiling aspect is a good thing. The rod sprays oil on the trust side of the cylinder. That is a very effective cooling mechanism as far as the piston/cylinder goes and sure doesn't hurt your lubrication on important surfaces.

The heat problem we've noticed is the external surfaces of the engine. Both the little mopar and the Hudson. Water temps are fine, the engine seems just as happy as can be, but they get really hot on the external surfaces. I don't really know how to explain it. I think its a combination of the thickness of the castings (more heat retention due to its mass) and the thermal conductivity of the metal. The flathead may actually be doing a better job of getting heat away from the internals and sending it out where it can be exchanged with the ambient air. The lower water temps would indicate that.

For example. The flathead tractor can make a run - and you can't lay your hand on the oil pan. The 292 tractor can make a run, and the oil pan is only warm. The flathead weighs twice what the 292 does. Same thing applies to the side of the block, the head, etc. However, the 292's water temperature will be higher.

I don't think its a big problem, because nothing seems to be hurting over it. Its just odd.

Hudson

There are a few heat shedding coatings on the market that you could coat your oil pan and other parts with. having your piston tops, ports, and chambers thermal coated will also help a great deal. It helps heep the heat in the cylinder and the ports, instead of being transfered to the block.

Hi everyone;

I recently aquired a 49 Dodge Power Wagon with the 230 six, and was thinking about transplanting a SBC to get a cruising speed compatible with today's secondary road speeds (50-60 mph). However, after doing more digging, I'm thinking about triple carbs, a tri-Y header, and 4.89 diff gears.

A few of the people on the Power Wagon Advertiser BB have made up intake/exhaust manifolds using different carbs (Rochester or Holley 2BBl) and have seen surprising results. One fellow had access to a chassis dyno, and saw a rear wheel Hp increase from 45 to 65!http;//www.powerwagonadvertiser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4848 Another adapted a Jeep exhaust header (same thread, see pictures), and noticed "blue jean dyno" improvements in not having to downshift for hills, and being able maintain 55 mph road speeds. I had wondered if the rods & crank would last much beyond the 3200 RPM governed limit, but Hudson's experience shows that they can.

The "hot oil, cool water" issue bears further investigation. Some very odd things happen in engine cooling passages! The late Smokey Yunic found that water would flow alternately between one head and the other due to steam pockets in the small block Chevy. The water in Hudson's engine may not reach the hotter parts- which might explain the high oil temps being reached in a very short time. I would monitor oilpan temps, and if they are over 200 deg, I would run an oil cooler, and start working on a pressurized cooling system with a crossflow rad. A full synthetic oil would also help. A method of running a full-flow oil filter on the flathead is shown at http://t137.com /archives/wwwboard74/messages/74015.html ,it could also take a cooler. There is a plug between the two hose fittings in the oil pump inlet galley, oil from the pump flows thru the first hose to the remote filter, and back into the engine thru the second fitting.
David Vizard mentions a triple SU carb setup he did for a 6 cyl LandCruiser in his "Carburetors & Intake Manifolds" book that added 30 extra HP, a glass-smooth 450 rpm idle, and "steam engine torque" to the low end- the engine was unstallable. His other experiences with V8 individual carbs have been impressive- 70 lb/ft gains in torque, 50 extra HP, better fuel mileage. A friend of mine who ports heads for a living has been simulating his 300 CID Ford on the computer with headers and triple Mikuni 44's- the computer says it will be an animal. The Mikuni is a widely used snowmobile/motorcycle carb- very tunable, and inexpensive compared to Webers or Dellortos.

I don't know how closely the results with OHV engines will translate to flatheads, but judging by the way it responds to Rochesters/Holleys, better mixture preparation should make a noticeable difference.

Makes me wonder... what's the radiator setup on the hudson folks' vehicles like?

Do you have pics?

Ray-
I'm in the process of sciencing this installation out, so I don't have any pics. I looked at airflow requirements, and found that the Mikuni 38mm roundslide carbs should be adequate past 5000 rpm- the original B&B venturii dia is 34mm. I located a triple set from a snowmobile salvage yard for $120- need to go get them when the snow stops. Looks like the the best header setup for midrange up would be a tri-Y pairing cylinders 1,6; 2,5; and 3,4 into 1.

If you check the firing order on these motors, you'll find that if you mate the first 3 cylinders together and the rear 3 cylinders together, you get perfectly spaced exhaust pulses; that's why most headers for these are made this way.

Marty

I made a road trip upcountry last night and got 3 38mm Mikunis from a snowmobile salvage yard. My next magical trick is to science out mounting details. I'm thinking of making a header plate, and using longer studs so that the intake could bolt up to the header- that way i could use the Mikuni Triple Carb set, or the Fish individual carb. Marty- is the crank throw spacing 120 deg for the 230/250 Dodge Flathead?

Yes, it is a 120 degree crank. Cylinders number 1 and 6 are in the same plane, as are 2 and 5, and 3 and 4.

Marty