Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected HELP! i am turboing a 300, and inj it with LP

first off i want to know if anyone knows how much power, and more importantly, torque, a 300 crank can take (will be using forged pistons and rods) RELIABLY... it will be in a heavy duty application, but i am trying to figure out what size turbo to use. i started making a compressor map, but am unsure if the lower BTU/higher octane ratings of LP should be taken into consideration when figuring this out.

i am going to run an 8.0:1 C/R, i want to run between 10-15 lbs of boost, depending on whether i'm unloaded or loaded, i intend to run it from 600-4000 RPM (it will see 5 plus on occasion) i want the torque and HP to peak at around there stock parameters (1600-2000 for the torque, and 2800-3200 for the HP) i am debating on whether to use a fuelie head, or a carbed head, it will be o-ringed regardless, but i am leaning towards the fuelie head. i will be custom fabbing a header for this, and am still debating on an intake.

ANY would be appreciated for this. a couple of years ago i did ALOT of research and found company that took over production of the 300 when ford dropped it in i think 99-01....? (i know truck use seased in 96 or 97, but they did continue toi pump them out for industrial use, I.E. generators, irrigation pumps, etc.) and they did offer a model with a forged crank, and had this crank available seperate for purchase. you guys have NOOO idea how difficult it was, lmao, though i also found a guy who would do up a billet crank for like $3000...ish? (WAY out of my price range at the time, and still is now, especially for this motor, lol)


thanks for the help in advance.

Might want to PM Frenchtown flier here on this BB.

I have heard of stock Ford 300 cranks are kinda weak & like to break.
I never heard of the 200's or 250's having there cranks break, but the 300's ,,,yes I hear they break.
I heard a guy build a 300 for a baja type race,crank broke,but it keeped running,,poorly,but ran.

At my old job,we had a 1991 Ford F-150 w/a 300 auto,70,000 miles(well taken care of),regular oil changes,broke a crank & spit out a rod out the side of the oil pan.
A co-worker was driving the truck to Oakland Ca,going 65-70 cruise & bammmm!! no go no more.
It was a mess.

MBHD

If you do go ahead with this project, please post some pics and results.
Lee

thanks i dropped him an email, since it said he hadn't been on in a while. btw, what is a BB? lol, sorry

BB= Bulletin Board

MBHD

As to the Ford 300 crankshaft being weak, we ran a 300 with modified 4 barrel carb, 4 speed, and headers in a Ford van for over 500K miles. The head was never off the engine. Engine was still strong when body rusted out for the third time (I love salt and cinders!!!).

Jon.

I would say that is not the norm for a 300 Ford lasting that long.
Nice story though.

MBHD

WHOA WHOA buddy! the 300 not lasting that long???!!! are we talking bout the same 300 CI six that Ford began production of in 1965, and ran until 96 in production truck and vans and large cars??? if so i BEG to differ about the longevity of this diesel-like, torquey monstrosity. i have RARELEY heard of 300's blowing up, especially stock, or something as colse to stock as a 4bbl with headers, i HAVE however heard and seen many a-vehicle go 300k-500k, and then proceed to have the body begin to fall off them while there scootin down the highway. again, not trying to start a fight hear, but i am gonna make a correction when needed, lol, on my buddys old 74 F-100, the number 5 cylinder took a dive on him, so he got a new truck, and the "green machine" soldiored on in true 300 fashion, to provide many fun filled days of field beating, Omni and Nova smashing delight, lol, then, we got bored/ shocked that it was still running, so we decided to kill it.... i never knew such an impossible feat existed! we hooked up a garage tach to the coil (since the truck did not have one originally) and proceeded to run it past its 4500 RPM factory rated redline, to 6500 RPM's of FIXED fan terror, while i quote, once the tach hit 5500 RPM and the fan blade began to sound like a small prop plane, the brave soul holding the tach wires, dropped them, going F@%$ THIS! dropping the wires and fleeing to a safe distance, well, another braver/less inteligent person rushed in and grabbed the wires, while they proceeded to run it up to 6500 RPM's, where the valves began to float, and held it there for 15 mins, after all this, and no carnage, they said screw it, shut her down, and put her bach in the back yard for some more field beating. that thing would have made it through winter fore another spring of beating, but the air cleaner was off, and everyone kind of forgot to throw the hood back over her, so come spring, the poor girl was seized. and for referance, the prior owner took HORRIBLE care of this thing, when he went to change the oil for the first time, the oil was all seperated, and he had huge globs along with THIN oil come draining out.... among other things. that is just one testament i have to the durability of a 300....

sorry, but it had to be said, again, aint lookin for an argument here

The main disscustion is about,if 300's have weak crankshafts,& yes I have seen one personally broke on a well taken care of work truck,crank broke. I have also heard from other friends that race with Ford 300's that have broken cranks,(& they were not making goobs of HP.

300's have a weaker crankshaft than a 200 or 250 Ford,they have been known to break(the 300's)

I have never heard of a 200 or 250 Ford crank break,but 300's I have heard & seen these cranks break. Period.

Just because you have not heard of these cranks breaking does not mean it does not happen.

My friend builds 300(Ford) Cylinder heads for race cars & trucks & during racing there 300 cranks broke.
That is the weak link in these engines,have not heard of any other weak items. Maybe you guys have?

MBHD

on the email i recieved back from the frenchtown flyer, he said that he would not worry so much about the crank, as he has over 1100 11 sec 1/4 mile passes on his, but he said that if running 10-15 PSI, i am going to have to do something for the head gaskets. he also said that ford made a turbo fleet of 300's.

well for your friends that build these race motors, what do they do for a stronger crank? forged units? if so, where do they get theres from? and how much are they?

and i wasn't saying i hadn't heard of the cranks breaking, i am just correcting you about what you said about it usually not LASTING that long (as in the 300) cause if someone read that alone, it could confuse them, and come on, no one wants durability confusion for there FAVORITE inline, no matter the make/model, most of these engines already suffer due to the lack of knowledgeable people for them, (parts availabitlity, tolerances, capacities, etc) thats why they came to this site, right? but thanks for the info thus far, its much appreciated

I am not saying you or anyone else has to worry about the crankshafts breaking,just that is the weak link in that particular engine.

Has the Frenchtown flyer broken 300 cranks?

My friend builds cylinder heads & has feedback from customers on Ford 300 engines.

Now if I hear you correct,,,, you have heard of 300 cranks breaking????
That being said,,,, have you heard of 200 or 250 Ford cranks breaking????
I am making a point here,but it seems you do not get it.

MBHD

i haven't really heard of either breaking to tell you the truth. but i should get out right away that a SB ford six is really not gonna work well in my application, but i am well aware of there potential, as i have one in my 67 mustang, and the plans i had for that were through the roof as well, (turbocharged, Mega-Squirt EFI, Aussie aluminum cross-flow head, and would be hand fabricating a side-draft style intake manifold. but even that car i was debating on putting a 300 in, but the shorter stroke/higher rev capabilities of the SB, PLUS the low end of the I6 configuration, HIGHLY intrigued me... so does the vast amount of parts for it....
But ne way, getting off topic, i just want the larger engine, as i am hauling aproxomitly 30,000 lbs with this rig. this thing aint being built for speed, more as for brute low end torque, reliability, and longevity...

but anyway, these guys that are breaking the cranks, what kind of power, and more importantly, torque figures, are they putting out?

In respect to any LP questions you might have, this site is very knowledgeable
http://fuelsforum.rasoenterprises.com/

my question is, why not just get a diesel engine. you want to pull 30k lbs. i have a F450 4wd and have had a total combined weight of 34k lbs and pulled it for 60 miles. that made my truck work! that engine puts down 550 ft lbs torq and 225 or so hp. if you expect a 300 ci gas motor to do the same it will certainly live a short life. sorry for my bad opinion. i enjoy making our engines perform. but i think your plans are lofty.

but it would be fun to try. tom

j-rez, thanks, i'll have a looksie,

tlowe,

i already have a diesel actually, but the truck its in is what i am swapping the 300 into, just for the record, the truck has 5.13 gears in it.
i will eventually be rebuilding the diesel to re-install, fyi, its an IDI 7.3, the truck is a 91 F-super duty

Mr. mean buzzin half dozen aka hank,

NOOOO, I have never broken a single Ford 300 crankshaft in any of my seven 300-powered hot rods in thirty-some years of racing. I would not characterize the 300 crankshaft as being "weak". Have I ever seen a cracked one - yes. But I have also seen 292 Chevy crank pieces scattered all over the pavement and 292 Chevy blocks cylinder walls split apart like hot weenies. So do I characterize 292s as having weak cranks and potatoe chip fragile blocks? Maybe yes - maybe no.

Any engine component subjected to higher stresses than production is likely to have its cyclical lifespan shortened. A savy engine builder will recognize this and plan accordingly. That is why my street hot rods use stock 300 cranks, my mild (11 sec.) bracket bomber uses a stock crank with a little extra bearing clearance, but my 8-second altered uses the optional Ford forged steel crank, reground with smaller journals, lightened, nitrided, polished, etc., etc. That just makes good sense.

To compare the 300 crank, with its 3.9800" stroke to 200 and 250 sixes is a bit misleading, wouldn't you say? I've got to believe you know enough about engine design to recognize that a crankshaft with a shorter stroke will have more rod-journal-to-main-journal overlap and will thus be less susceptible to torsional fatigue than a crank with a longer stroke.

If you still want to characterize the 300 crankshaft as being weak, well, its a free country. Knock yourself out.

'Scuse me while I go assemble another 300 hot rod motor.

I think that you will be disappointed with the 300 trying to pull 30klbs. A much better way to go, in my opinion, is to transplant a 5.9 cummins. There are kits available to do so. Both the 300 and the cummins are good engines but they were designed for vastly different purposes.

If you want something novel, the 8.3 cummins has also been transplanted into Ford pickups. It will do much better than the ford six.

thanks dude, but trying to stay away from diesel, as the truck already has one, though its gettin rebuilt eventually. though outta curiosity, what applications did the 8.3 come in?

The 8.3 is, like Cummins's other engines, used in just about everything: farm tractors, OTR trucks, industrial, etc. We have one in a farm tractor. Why would you want to stay away from the diesel? Lots more HP potential and it was designed for your application.

i know, don't get me wrong, i like diesels, but the lower fuel cost of lp is what is pushing me towards gas. and the low maintenence costs of a gas engine are nice too. i know diesels usually require less maintenence, but when the do need it its usually through the roof in cost. diesel was great when it first came through, low fuel cost, tough as nails, gobs upon gobs of torque. emmisions exempt. now, thanks to every yuppie that wants a diesel but doesn't need one, the demand for the fuel has risen over the years, the amount of light duty diesels on the road has risen and now the EPA has gotten there death grip on them too. but until i get a regular operation under way for producing my own bio diesel, and design a failsafe fuel delivery system, i am leaning away from it. sorry, i like them, alot, but i can't afford to run one.

OL 'B,
I pondered a diesel when purchasing a new motor home to pull my race car trailer last year too.
I ended up with a gasser (8.1L (496ci) BB Chevy [GASP! - THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER bought a Chevy!]) for several reasons, not the least of them being able to fix the BBC by the side of the road myself, $250 oil changes for the diesel, low man on the totem pole in diesel repair facilities, high cost of replacement parts and hi cost/gal of diesel fuel, the smell, the noise, the initial cost (about $11000 more), etc.

the only diesels i consider are the older ones (such as the IDI ford V8's (injectors are $60, and can be had from car quest, vs, $400+ for one for a power stroke, which i have to get from ford, or select online distributors, and then i gotta take the valve cover off to get at them....) the noise, sorry, but i am a fan of the knagakngaaknaga from those old rattlers. lol, i know, call me crazy. btw, those 8.1's, good LORD they got some torque. i want one! lol (for a car)

my buddys got a duramax, man alive, that thing hauls, and i aint just talkin loads, the thing with its 7000 lb curb weight can turn in a 14.3 second 1/4..... thank you Gale Banks! and theres more comming for that thing. i just don't have the 30k (and thats used) for something like that. if i want to go fast i'll fire up my AMX. lol. (or a turboed I-6 stang,(or turboed 4.0 liter rambler)) lol the ones in qoutations don't exist yet. but the AMX does.


sorry, i was ALL over the board in this post.

you got a pm

You need to do some cost analysis. I don't believe that building a new engine will even to run on cheaper lp gas will come out over the life of the engine. Unless the diesel was already dead. Still, you will be changing a lot of stuff.

"but the lower fuel cost of lp is what is pushing me towards gas. and the low maintenence costs of a gas engine are nice too"

???

You might want to re-examine this statement!!!

Special licensing??? Road tax??? Less than half the mileage on LP than that obtainable from gasoline???

As the youngsters say "Been there, done that, won't do it again!"

Jon.

don't have any special licensing here for that actually, and road fuel isn't any more here than heating fuel, if anything they give you a price break for using an alternative fuel... again, at least here

to 56er, the diesel needs a rebuild, which i will be doing eventually too

The reason I asked is that in Missouri, one must have a special license on the vehicle (in addition to the regular license) which is pretty pricey. Then road tax (same as on gasoline) is added to the cost of the fuel.

We found that even when we quit using the LP (it was disconnected) we still had to pay the annual license until the unit was removed, and the vehicle inspected by the state. Then the annual license was removed.

Ours was a factory dual fuel, normally aspirated, motorhome. 9.5 MPG on gasoline, 3~4 on LP with a resultant loss of power of about 30 percent also.

Jon.

yeah i understand that, but here we don't have to have a special license, as for the road tax, like i said, the places round here that advertise it for road use, are ususally cheaper than "for heat" co-ops.... because one is using it as an alternative fuel... other states are even better about it, like california gives u a break on road tax, and a higher tax return atr the end of the year for using an alternative fuel..... my cousin lives in missouri, and believe me, your DMV laws SUCK, and you would think with all the extra stuff they charge you for you would have better quality roads, but, and i think you will agree with me, you don't....lol

the mileage is obtainable provided you take advantage of the fuels high octane rating, and bump up the compression and advance the timing

"my cousin lives in missouri, and believe me, your DMV laws SUCK, and you would think with all the extra stuff they charge you for you would have better quality roads, but, and i think you will agree with me, you don't....lol"

Roads??? Interstate 70 = a long stretch of potholes, interrupted by a long string of 18-wheelers!

Jon.

jon? hey thats my cousins name..... lol

Can LP gas be injected or do you have to use a carb?

well, most ppl will use whats called a mixer, (propnae carburator, but you can inject it into each intake port, though i have been re-thinking this idea, as the lp has a longer time to mix with the air if injected in the mixer as opposed to right b-4 it goes into the cylinder, that is unless it was on something like the dohc 4.6 V8, where the injectors are aimed right at the intake valves, so the vaporization is awesome, though LP gas is quite cool, specially when that tanks been moving it for a while, so you may get an adverse affect by cooling that hot surface. guess the best way to find out is to try it....:S