Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Aluminum head for late Chevy sixes

I got an email today from Classic Inlines in Arizona after I asked them about whether they were going to do an aluminum head for the 194 - 292 Chevy engines, and this is the answer I got from them. Sounds like pretty good news. Everything below this line is their email.


YES, we will be doing an aluminum head for the Chevys. We hope to start on it sometime this summer, and have them available by Christmas. Possibly sooner.

We will do the same thing we did with the small six Ford head. It will use all stock valve train components, and stock manifolds (intake and exhaust), as this keeps the total end cost down considerably. Thus making it affordable for the average builder. Price will be in the same range, around $1500-1600 for the head and intake.

I got a lot of criticism from several inliner members when I designed the Ford head. Everyone told me I was making a mistake by not going with a crossflow design. What they never considered is the cost to produce all the rest of the stuff, which winds up more than the head itself. It's also the reason the Fissell heads are so expensive. I wasn't shooting for maximum performance, rather reliability and affordability, which is what our nitch lacks. Are goals are to help the average guy, build an average performance motor, for street or strip.

With porting our new Ford head will flow 230-240cfm on the intake side, and around 190 on the exhaust. At least that what we expect. We are in the process of porting one now, and will flow test by mid Feb to confirm.

We spent quite a bit of money and time designing the intakes as well. Everyone thought the intake would decrease flow, but it actually helped. That was a surprise. They also support several induction setups, including 2V (parallel or perpendicular to the crank), 4V, twin Weber's (from Inglese), triple Weber's, and various TBI, EFI combos. We are also working on an intake for use with an M90 blower.

Hang in there, as we'll do the same for the Chevy guys as quickly as we possibly can.

Even if this head gives no performance advantage to a built cast iron head the weight factor and ease of use will be good. Bring it on!

it would be nice if they could get rid of one of the major head problems.

they need to split the siamesed intake ports. tom

If they are smart,they will not make it a siamesed intake port design..

They should be able to widen & raise the roof port & divide it & you will still be able to use an Offy or Clifford intake.
You would have to port/widen& raise your intake manifold ports accordingly.
Also,they need to do some improvement on the short turn radius'By making that longer/taller radius
They can still use the head bolt in the intake port as long as they make it a nice airfoil design & shape it properly.
2.02" intake 1.60" exhaust valves.

MBHD

since they only have to follow bolt patterns and relative location of push rods and valves they should be able to deliver a completely redesigned ports for improved flow path right? I mean they wouldn't just make this a stock bad flow version of the same old head only aluminum would they?

I am glad this will happen and this is funny because i begged Edelbrock to do this repeatedly last year and they said "No to Inlines". Their loss is my gain, go Classic Inline.

If they "It will use all stock valve train components, and stock manifolds (intake and exhaust), as this keeps the total end cost down considerably." that will be interesting to design around. They must be aware of Lumps. If they could raise the ports up and the rail that valve cover sits on that would be a good start. Raising the manifolds up wouldn't be a problem for my truck.

Larry

OK, here's a slightly belated reply to a second e-mail I sent to Classic Inlines on January 27, which apparently was the day the Bulletin Boards went south for a while (and by the way, thanks to Tim Tenold, our tireless webmaster for getting things working again). I was going to post it then, so now that the Boards are back up, I'll post it now. I asked him 3 questions and the replies I got from him immediately follow each question. Here's what it looks like:

1. In the pictures of the Ford intake manifolds, there are a couple of holes that look like they are for adding fittings for water heat to the manifold. Is that what they are, and is the Chevy manifold going to have a provision for water heat? YES/YES

2. Is the Chevy head going to be lump ported when you build it? To early to tell

3. Is it going to be a 12 port head or siamesed ports like the stock Chevy six heads? Definitely not siamesed.

So it looks like at least in the early stages, that this head is going to be good news for us. This guy has been getting some SERIOUS horsepower from the aluminum Ford heads he builds, so I'm hoping that the same thing will happen with his Chevy design when it hits the street.

And with THAT news I for one will be holding off on spending any money at all on modifying my old "194" head for my Late Chevy 250-Six.
I would rather put out the big bucks down on the one area we all know will provide the most power. Head Flow!

Can't wait Classic Inline...thanks for thinking of us Chevy Guys too! And thanks to Zeke for staying on top of this!

James

From these posts and the response from Classic Inline the head will more than likely be just like the marine 181cid head but of course have 6 combustion cambers and sized for 3.875 bore. A whole lot of flow better than its earliest counterparts. Anything is better than nothing!!!!!!!! MAYBE HE'S COPYING THE BRAZILIAN HEAD??????????????? (yea, right)

The Brazillian head was designed by Lotus.Just FYI

MBHD

For what it's worth, the foundry owner where the heads will more than likely be done at is an avid Chevy six guy. Mike @ Classic Inlines is taking note of all the e-mails and suggestions and input from all that have responded about the Chevy head.

Well, to be honest, the marine 181 head copy with just a little higher intake location and a raised cover rail to keep oil from going everywere and still have the older cover pattern would be a BIG improvement over the stock heads.JMHO.

P.S.
Since it would require a new intake be made this would not make it to production.

OKay Classic Inline...when do you think it will make production?

Will you guys be at SEMA in November?

james

Has anyone tried to stagger the valves?

That is move the exhaust closer to the spark plugs and move the intakes closer to the manifold. The closer that you could get a line between the valves to be on the center of the bore the larger the valves could be. The hybrid heads move the pushrods away from the block by some angle. What is maximum angle from vertical you can angle a pushrod and still have it stay in the lifter at rpm. I'm sure there are limits with a stock head, but a custom head. Even if it required a wider valve cover that might not be a bad price to pay depending on how close to the center of the bore you could get.

Larry

Having some problems with my user account so I can't edit the previous message.

Another question is how much could you open up the slot for the pushrod towards the center of the block. I haven't got time right now to take the head off my spare 292 to see.

Larry

Larry, FWIW IIRC the small block V8 Dodge (318 etc) operates at a 59 degree angle (measured from where I don't know). I expect that the I-6 having longer pushrods would have some effect due to pushrod flex but I expect that the angle change you describe would not be that drastic, special (custom) rocker arms could help with this if necessary (using small block Chevy wherever possible seems to be the cheapest).

Larry
the hole can be opened up larger then a 3/8 dia push rod. If you need to know just how much before you get into the water jacket I can check that to. It would be real easy for me to do/check with one of the heads I already have cut in half. Maybe this will get me off my butt and get my head back off my motor and get it sloted for my 3/8s push rods at the same time.?

The bottom side of the head has at least! a 1/2 hole in it to start with.

Nexxussian, good info. I think we want to stay away from custom rockers so us Peeons have a better chance of affording this custom head.

Twisted, it's not the head I'm concerned about it's the block. Particularly the 250 block. Could the hole for the push rods be moved (notched) towards the center (absolute) of the bore by about .375.

I do have a spare head, I'm working on, so I took some rough measurements this morn, and I do mean rough. It appears that the center of the valves is off the center of the bore by about a .25 of an inch. If a intake of about 2.0 can use now, moving the valve center to the center line of the bore an intake of about 2.5 might be possible. Is there a 2.5 valve for sbc? There's a lot to consider here and trade offs, combustion chamber would change, move the exhaust valve, how big of an exhaust valve. I don't have the knowledge or drafting tools to play with this, and probably would never have the need for a 2.5 intake valve. The critical factor is really if the block could be notch to account for the valve being moved.

I looked at the valve seat cut and it looks like it could be move .25 towards the valve cover, it would be right up against the valve with not much room to spare. If I had one of these custom heads I would love to see a polished (even if I to polish) finned aluminum valve cover with the name "Classic Inlines".

Larry

Larry

I can't understand why you need to notch the block Or the lower half of the head. Notching the upper push rod hole comes into play when you start run a 700 lift or bigger,Or go to a 3/8 dia push rod,or go to a 1.8 rocker or again bigger It wants to Pull the push rods into the head. Even with a two peice push rod I have not heard of anyone needing to cut/slot the block.

As to valve size i have seen a 2.0 valve in the head. But I don't think you can go any bigger in dia. And your talking about doing more work to unshroud it. But I know Glen Self and them guys Have moved the Valves around in the head. off set the vlave guides now as to how much ,that i haven't a clue.

And as for the space/casting thickness from push rod to push rod
hole in the head (gasket & block area) kinda varys in thickness
from just looking at the cut heads i have. So i am not sure how
difference there would be in the Blocks in the same area.
But the blocks have beeen opened up to a 5/8 hole when running a HIGH lift cam with 3/8s push rod you would also need to make a releaf cut in the block itself. You can see a photo of that in Leo's book on page 79.

What I'm suggesting is moving the valve(s) .25 towards the manifolds. That would put the valves in the center of the bore. That gives you more room for larger valves. I think a 2.25 valve would be easy to put in a head with the valves moved into the bore .25. It also means the push rod will moved .25 closer to the block, so you would have to relieve the block like Leo shows on page 79, but 2-3 times more.

Are there any articles or pictures showing what Glen Self has done in moving valves around?

Larry

There are really two different markets for the aluminum head. One for a hot rodder and one for an all out racer and based on the limited market, my guess is it will lean more to stock than an all out head. The number of Duggan or Sissel aluminum heads is a large part of my "logic". This head cannot require the hours of machining, either by the manufacturer or end user that these earlier heads did. It would make sense that it will be a direct bolt on replacement for stock heads. Yes, it could have lumps, at least 1.94 (maybe 2.02)and 1.60 inch valves, screw in rocker studs and openings for manifold heat. I would expect to see the use of off the shelf valves, manifolds, rockers, push rods and maybe even valve covers.

In order to to manufacture the aluminum head there needs to be enough sales and profit to justify it and still be inexpensive enough that the average inliner would be willing to spend the money.

Larry

I do not know what all they have tried. It would be better if you just gave them a call. they are a great bunch of guys to talk to.Something else you have to look at when trying to use a Very big valve is valve to cyl bore clearance. espcaily with a High lift cam. Plus if your going to move the valve closer to the intake and then move the push rods the same. What will do about the rockers which will no longer line up either. I think
you after something that may have Little to no gain at all??

Bruce, I think your probably right. I would like to think sometime in the future I could afford just that. It would be interesting if they could make provisions for moving the valves. Who knows maybe I'll hit the Lotto before I die, but then if I did that, I'd probably buy a 12 port head to. 8-)

I thought it was an interesting idea and was curious to see what might be possible with stock components. I'll go back to working on my 292 now.

Larry

If any Bulletin Board member has a product or service to sell please post it in the Classified Ads. A discreet mention of your ad will be allowed in the forums, but it has been a long standing policy not to do advertising here.

In the same respect, mentioning outside vendors, eBay auctions, etc. regarding things of interest to Inliners has been determined to be fine as long as it is kept within the 'advertising standards' of the BB.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Tim Tenold
Webmaster

WHAT DO YOU THINK A ALUMINUM HEAD SHOULD SELL FOR. ALUMINUM
TO PORE IS $4.00PER POUND A 20 POUND HEAD WOULD COST $80.00
FOR THE ALUMINUM THEN YOU GOT WATER CORES AT $100.00 PER HEAD THE COST TO CAST IT AND THE COST TO MACHINE IT.AND THE COST TO
KEEP THE PATTERN IN GOOD SHAPE SO THE HEAD CASTING TURN OUT
GOOD THEN YOU GOT THE COST OF A INTAKE AND PATTERNS THE COST
OF HEAT TREATING EACH HEAD COST $100.00 THE PRICE OF HEAT TREATING HAS WENT UP GAS TO FIRE THE FURNACES AND THEY WON'T
DO JUST ONE AT THAT PRICE IT MUST BE TEN AT A TIME.
IT IS EASY TO SET AND TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH SOMTHING SHOULD COST
BUT UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT IS INVOLVED IN CASTING A HEAD IT IS HARD TO JUDGE COST.
I AM NOT TRYING TO BE SMART I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT LIKE TO KNOW
WHAT IS INVOLVED THANKS WALTER DEPPE

So what is the cost?
$4000.00 for your cylinder head?

MBHD

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO PAY

HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT?
What are your flow numbers? Valve sizes?
If you post some flow numbers,priceing someone might be interested,along pics of your inventory etc.

MBHD

I'm not quite sure how we got to this point, but if you look at the first post in this thread, you'll see that the target price mentioned by Classic Inlines for their cylinder head and intake manifold combination is $1500-$1600. Yes, the Deppe head costs more, but it's also a race-only head, unless I'm misinformed about that. And Classic Inlines has been making and selling aluminum heads for Ford engines for a while, so their production machinery and processes are already in place. All they need to do to produce a Chevy head is to change the casting molds and load the program for the CNC machining, which is a lot less expensive than starting from scratch. And what DOES a Deppe head cost nowdays?

Deppe does not want to post his head price because they are way too much. That is indeed if infact he has any?? I believe he wants about $4000. Goodluck getting one.

Classic Inlines will be starting from scratch,they will have to make there patterns from ground up,unless someone has some patterns for them.

MBHD

OH I'm sure he'll take your money. It's getting the part is what i would be worried about.He does not seem to have a very good track record.So buyer beware & good luck.

well joe does have his price posted in the classifieds.

NEW DEPPE ALUM> CHEV 250-292 BARE HEAD
WITH ALUM> VALVE COVER
NO VALVES ARE SPRINGS CAN BE RUN ON STREET.$2,995.00

here is the link to ad. (will get link later)
tom

Well,ask him what a complete head ready to run cost,BTW,did you buy some parts from this guy,sounds like you are on his side?

Good point, Hank, you're right about the patterns, but once that's done, they should be able to utilize the rest of their production equipment and machinery to produce the head. And I have no particular interest in a Deppe head, because I have no use for one.

hank, no, never have bought parts from him. have you?

there are ways to protect oneself when doing bussiness deals. if scared on getting burned, just get smarter about the way you do it. especially with you people you do not trust.

i bought another 64 elco this weekend. rust free, disasembled and incomplete. it has a early 12 bolt posi and the guy says he has another at home to sell. he had no title in hand. so we agreed on a price. i paid 1/3 down, 1/3 when delivered and 1/3 when i get title and extra 12 bolt. this left incentive for both of us in the deal.

i also aim to say, this inliner board is not about beating joe "down". maybe he has alot of useful info he could pass on. i do not see the guy from classic inlines chiming in on this post. do you think he is watching, yeah.

so once again , ihave never bought or sold anything with joe deppe. talked with him on the phone, yes. and i would like to possibly meet him someday. some people have had bad experiences, i have been told. i do not think you are one of them. tom

Tom,
if there are board member here that are known rip offs,there is no reason we need a person like this here.

Regardless of what info that person may have.
I have a friend that had dealings with him & got taken.

I have talked w/him on the phone also. What does that matter?
I will tel you this...............
You will get more usefull info from a person like Mike Kirby
This guy reminds me of Leelites.

MBHD

OK guys, let's not spin into a character assassination scenario, you all know the rules of the road. Everyone has had their say, any more and the whole topic will disappear, I have been thru too much with getting this board back online to have this be the results.

Hi Guys,
I have followed the cylinder head issue closely for several years.
I spent alot of time checking out a design for a performance head and researched many head designs used over the years. I cut a Duggan head apart to check it out.I have spent time with Frank Duggan and spoken to Mike Kirby.
From far off New Zealand we do not get heavily influenced by just
American engineering but various countries.
Patterns for a water jacketed head are some of the most complex ones a patternmaker is ever likely to make in his job.
My design was to be crossflow, 2 valve with a large inlet and small exhaust and pushrod.Many hours went into setting it all up
on a block and getting angles sorted etc.
Porosity can be a huge issue if the foundry is not up to the task
and this frustrated Duggan during his manufacturing.
Over a period of 18 months I could see the price of the Vortec 4.2 dropping huge amounts and today $500 will buy one.
Spending $500 gets you a bare casting only for a head never mind the pattern costs etc.
The commitment to produce heads as Mike Kirby has done is huge and to get a realistic return a very high price is required as opposed to a complete 4.2 that has easy HP potential.The market has changed and I see Inliners going in a different direction from 10 years ago.
I take my hat off to anyone who is willing to produce a cylinder head today for a diminishing market at an affordable price.
The situation in Australia is similar where no heads are produced
in any numbers for a market that loved their inline six.
Regards
Alistair Parker

Not sure if you know this but Mike Kirby bought the rights to the patterns of the Duggan head. Just a little FYI.

MBHD