Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines oil issues

I just got off the phone with patricks and discovered some new and interesting things and thought that I would pass it on for everyones sake, and hopefully for your engines sake. I was told that delo, and rotella no longer have the zinc and manganese additives that we need for our motors!!! I was told by my engine builder that diesel oil was a good way to go, the 15w-40 oil that is anyway, because they are not smog controlled and dont have catalytic converters, but pats also told me that this has been done away with as well!! pats told me that the only oil to use is valvoline VR1 racing oil, because its "designed for off road" vehicles, and use 20w-50, or 40w, or 50w, and possibly 60w in the summer, and these oils still have the additives, and that we should also use any type of oil additive that has zinc and manganese additives.
Oh and P.S. I would not trust their prices on the net either, I am not saying they are shady, but it hasnt been updated since like 2000, and when I went to buy my 41$ oil pump, it was like 76$, and the springs and push rods were like an extra 10 bucks each so just be aware of this when you give them a call, but he was cool enough to pick up the shipping!! And he was good enough to chat on the phone with me for like 20 minutes, and he actually asked me if there was anything on my mind that I would like to ask him, but in a good way, not like "is there ANYTHING ELSE you want to talk about??????". All in all it was a little more but with him paying the shipping it was just maybe 20 extra bucks, and he was really nice, all in all it was a great transaction!

Several engine builders such as EGGE sell ZDDP additive and I think I've seen it on the shelf of local parts supplier. Despite price increases,everything is going up everywhere, I agree that Patrick's is quite fair and honorable in his business dealings.

In older engines I always use heavy oils like 50W. This is because the bearings get worn over time and the heavier oil compensates for the lack of space in the system. Generally Oil Pressure is measured at the most remote bearing... farthest away from the pump.

I dont deny additives but think if you use decent oil and change it regular... you will be fine. Zinc is used on many metal platings. It is like Fake Chrome. Manganese is related to Magnesium. It is soft like aluminum.

At our last club meeting we had a rep from Erson Cams. This topic came up and it was the consensus that we need to use an additive to replace the missing zinc. I have checked all of the oils at work and Valvoline Racing is the only one with zinc. Who knows of a good additive?

There are at least a couple of brands of ZDDP additive being sold on ebay. ZDDP on ebay
Does anyone know about these brands?

yeah I just got to say that I thought that this should be passed on because until just the other day I thought that delo and rotella, and diesel oils still had these protective additives!!! So I just thought that if I was under this impression maybe I was not the only one ya know! So anyhow, I just had to pass this on because I have to say that I am a little freaked out learning this when i am about to break in my 2000 dollar 261 chevy motor in the next week or so. so any thoughts people, so ya think that I should just use like straight 30W valvoline and a butt load of some sort of zinc additive to break this motor in?

Go to store and see what the main ingredient is in old old STP. That is what we used before the refiners started to add it to oil for us.

yeah an engine builder told me that a great lifter/cam lube for break in is using STP additive and oil mix, like 50/50, sticky as all hell, and messy but he said it always worked great, anyone ever heard of this?

dbane261:

I've heard of it..It's always been (in my driving life time) a good additive. But part of using it is to get the temp of the oil in the motor up to operating temp BEFORE adding it or you will have a glob of that sticky stuff in the bottom of the oil pan. Cold, it doesn't want to mix in with the rest of the oil. I"d be looking at a really good assembly lube, perhaps like the Lubriplate brand which was mentioned in the Ebay link for the ZDDP additives. It's been used for ever.

My two cents:
Paul...aka Xerxes

dbane261:

I've heard of it..It's always been (in my driving life time) a good additive. But part of using it is to get the temp of the oil in the motor up to operating temp BEFORE adding it or you will have a glob of that sticky stuff in the bottom of the oil pan. Cold, it doesn't want to mix in with the rest of the oil. I"d be looking at a really good assembly lube, perhaps like the Lubriplate brand which was mentioned in the Ebay link for the ZDDP additives. It's been used for ever.

My two cents:
Paul...aka Xerxes

I'm not sure but I don't think STP has zinc it's just thick. I'll check it Tuesday at work. I can't remember what the Erson guy said to use but I'll find out Saturday at Rappin' to Minden. The one thing I do remember is that it doesn't take a lot.

Back in the middle 70's I was part of a motorcycle road racing team that used to run six hour endurance races. We used to make our own engine assembly lube by mixing STP and moly chassis grease 50/50. It wouldn't run and stuck to bearings, cams, and anything else it was applied to like glue, and formed a protective coating that worked great for the first startup of a new motor. We never had any problems with galling or premature wear on any of the engines we built using that homebrew assembly lube.

See the related discussion thread on zinc (ZDDP) and engine oils that was in the 'Engines' forum on this site. Sorry, I could not figure how to do a link to the thread.

"Flat tappet cm/lifter wear" that started on 07-13-2007 05:44 PM, #15855.

I believe Valvoline VR1 is a synthetic oil.
Diesel oils were reformulated a couple of years ago with a little less zinc to protect the new mandated catalytic converters.
Old stock Rotella and Delo is still on the shelves in some stores.

The red bottle STP oil additive or the ZDDP additive mentioned above can be added to standard oils to restore previous levels of zinc.
1200 ppm is the magic number.

For initial start and break-in the first 500 miles, use oil with enough zinc plus add another bottle of zinc, or even better break-in additive, available from your cam grinder, like Delta or Crane.

Cam failures have mostly been reported from engines build for racing with high spring pressures.
After initial break in, the extra zinc may not be required on a street engine, but it sure can't hurt.

Winter, What I do to copy a link to a thread, is "Email Post" to myself, the button is on the bottom right corner of post. Then copy the link out of the email.

Larry

I have heard that Brad Penn has a non synthetic that still has the ZDDP levels necessary (I have no way to confirm this).

I haven't tried this but these guys have an adative. http://www.zddplus.com/

I have been talking to a few machinists and they have recommended (strongly) to parkerize the cam.

Hope that helps.

Here's the link for one of the earlier thread concerning zinc anti-wear additive levels in new diesel engine oils:

https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=15855

Thanks for the tip Larry G.

Many companies are marketing zink additives with a lot of them in the 15 to 25 dollar range. The reason I mentioned STP in the above post is that it contains enough zink to increase your oil levels to more than needed for about 3 dollars and can be bought almost anywhere.
STP can be used on bearings as an assy lube but never use it on new rings during assembley as it will slow down or prevent proper break in. We used it on all of our engines bearings and cams for years with fantastic results.

VR-1 Valvoline is a conventional oil. Has anyone checked the Kendall GT1 to see if it had zinc? I know they changed it a couple or years ago, but sure what changed.

I just ran across this on the EGGE site while looking for Big Six parts. It's the best I read so far concerning ZDDP.

http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=429&SID=4

so I am almost ready to break this motor in, so what do ya think would be a good oil weight to break this beast in? like 10W-40, or 10W-30, I am going to use the valvoline VR1 racing oil for the additives in still has, and probably add a ZDDP shot to help, and when should I change my oil after initial break in? miles wise that is.

i would use the 10-40. a good source for the zddp is from GM, a product called EOS (engine oil supplement). iuse it at all oil changes for mine.
also change the oil at 500 miles. it is amazing how much junk comes out of a new engine. tom

so when should I change the filter after the initial break in time, like after a couple hours? or after 50 miles? I know that I should change the oil after the first 500, but should I be changing the filter too, and sooner? I am just trying to be safe here ya know, I am just a little leary because I have like 3000 dollars in this motor and want to do it right ya know! I was also curious when I break this in, would it be wise to break the cam in with the weaker stock springs to put less load on the cam lobes, and just swap in the competition springs after like a couple hundred miles. Or break them in with the competition springs, breaking them in with the stiffer springs just seems like it will be more likely to wipe out a lobe, so what do ya guys think? thanks in advance!!

I just got this in an email from STP customer service. This may be the way to go.

Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.



Yes, our oil additives do contain ZDDP, unfortunately, the amount it contains is proprietary. What I am able to tell you is that when you add this product to 4 to 5 quarts of oil it provides the same type of protection the older motor oils once provided. We have many classic car owners that use our product for this reason to protect flat tappet cam motors.

Use that cam break in oil/paste from ISKY & others.

We used to used that moly grease break in paste for cam break in, great for high friction (Moly that is)but only draw back,it clogs up your filter,that way it is manditory to install a new filter after cam break in.

What is your spring seat pressure & over the nose pressure?

MBHD