#43280 - 08/31/08 07:34 PM
Flattie
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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This past weekend I purchased a 1958 Plymouth Suburban 4 door wagon. This unit is powered by a 230 mopar flathead 6. When I bought it in Omaha, car ran very well. 30 miles down the road, radiator spewing smoke I end up in a gas station with water in the oil. I'm not sniveling, cause the car is extremly cool, but I'd like to know what kind of issues I can expect to see when the engine is out and on the bench.
My second question is about the drive:
The car is equiped wih a 3-speed w/overdrive. I'm thinking about a change to a Chev L6 with a 700R4 behind it. I've been told the 3-speed is a stout unit but I'm a novice when it comes to this ovedrive. Looks like it has got a cable to activate it but I'm clueless as to how to activate it.
The frame is a big heavy completely boxed perimiter frame. Due to the goofy torsion bar/drag link (this forces a center sump oil pan) I don't see anyone that has a stub or any Mustang II type suspention. Any suggestions fella's?
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#43283 - 09/01/08 07:12 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Cable seem stuck in the "out" position. I'll be working on it today.
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#43290 - 09/01/08 11:20 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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supersixaspen
Active BB Member
Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Puyallup, WA
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please don't put a cheby motor in it!!!
_________________________
What do you mean it cost money?
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#43291 - 09/01/08 11:21 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: supersixaspen]
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supersixaspen
Active BB Member
Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Puyallup, WA
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see http://www.50plymouth.com
_________________________
What do you mean it cost money?
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#43294 - 09/01/08 08:51 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: supersixaspen]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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As I haven't figured out how to post pictures here, I have added a Photo Bucket link to let you guys see my stuff. Looking at it from the rear, the car leans a bit to the left. My wife has tagged it with the moniker "Eileen". I'm gonna try to get that as a personal plate when I register her. The '58 is the same car that was featured in the movie "Christeen". My car is Eileen, Christeen's big sister........  
Edited by Xea I.I. #5390 (09/01/08 08:58 PM)
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#43314 - 09/03/08 11:15 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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blueskies
Active BB Member
Registered: 02/22/01
Posts: 144
Loc: Hailey, Idaho, USA
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The overdrive is great once you get it dialed in... It has a 33% reduction, so it will enable your flathead six to cruise all day long at 70-75mph.
The cable is a lockout, and does nothing to engauge the overdrive. If the cable is pulled out, it does two things: one, it mechanically disables the sun gear, and two, it disengauges the electrics of the system. The transmission will not freewheel when the cable is pulled out.
When the cable is pushed in, the electrics are free to do their thing, automaically, as you drive the car. Once you reach the cut in speed of about 27 mph, you should hear a click from the relay, and if you let off the gas, the transmission should shift into overdrive. It will stay in overdrive until you are under the cut in speed, or until you kick it down with a full throttle stomp of the gas. The kickdown switch is a two position switch, and is located on the throttle linkage somewhere. The first postion interrupts power to the solenoid, and the second interrupts power to the coil. The coil is cut momentarily to release the torque from the OD, so that the solenoid pawl can release.
Here's a great wiring diagram, that should help find all the wires and electrics (hit reload on your browser if the pic doesn't show):
Also, slide on over the the http://www.p15-d24.com site, and you will find in the downloads section a scanned copy of the Borg/Warner manual for the R10 overdrive. This book has a terrific step by step troubleshooting guide for the electrics and mechanical parts of this transmission.
Let me know if you have any questions, I might be able to help out...
Pete
http://www.50plymouth.com
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#43350 - 09/04/08 07:45 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Pete, thanx, this is exactly why I joined Inliners International. I can't tell you how much this helps me. Engine and tranny are out and this weekend I will see how much it is hurt.
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#43400 - 09/07/08 12:34 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: blueskies]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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OK, here is the bad news.
The head gasket was blown between 5 & 6.
The valve seat under the the #6 exhaust valve is missing from it's normal location, and fractured pieces are beat into the tops of the #1 and #6 pistons.
The #1 exhaust valve is bent.
No ridge in the top of any bore, with no scoreing, so the cylinders at .060 over look fairly good.
The big one is that the head appears cracked and I don't think it can be repaired.
I've found a source for valves and pistons but finding a head may be a challenge. Anyone have a spare laying around?
Edited by Xea I.I. #5390 (09/07/08 01:02 PM)
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#43463 - 09/09/08 11:56 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: blueskies]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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How would I know if it is an internal bypass?
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#43489 - 09/10/08 11:13 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: blueskies]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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This is what I have:
The hose from the thermostat housing went to the radiator, and the skinny pipe out of the water pump would go to the heater core.
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#43491 - 09/10/08 12:50 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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blueskies
Active BB Member
Registered: 02/22/01
Posts: 144
Loc: Hailey, Idaho, USA
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It's an internal bypass engine... The head I have won't work for you.
The bump on the front edge of the head is the bypass passage between the block and head/thermostat.
Pete
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#43494 - 09/10/08 08:30 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: blueskies]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Thank you Pete, I'm learning as I go. And the little detail you just taught me will help me not get the wrong thing.
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#43987 - 09/30/08 06:54 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Hey BotP, block has cracks too. Drat. I'm gonna go see it friday and see how bad it is. I'm really at a loss now....... I got new pistons and rings on the way from Egge, and a new head and a couple valves and afew other goodies coming from Vintage Power Wagons. Anyone had decent sucsess with a welded block or am I chasing my tail? The machinest sez there are 2 or 3 cracks in the head gasket surface with one from the water jacket to an intake seat. When I asked him if that was where some of the escaping coolant could have been going and his response was "sure, it could have been leaving there". I sure don't want to fix everything up if the block is junk. I can't go to my buddy and find another 230 C.I. flathead sitting under the bench like I might find a more popular motor. Any thoughts?
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#44003 - 10/01/08 09:18 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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CNC-Dude #5585
Active BB Member
Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 1743
Loc: N. Georgia
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Hey BotP, block has cracks too. Drat. I'm gonna go see it friday and see how bad it is. I'm really at a loss now....... I got new pistons and rings on the way from Egge, and a new head and a couple valves and afew other goodies coming from Vintage Power Wagons. Anyone had decent sucsess with a welded block or am I chasing my tail? The machinest sez there are 2 or 3 cracks in the head gasket surface with one from the water jacket to an intake seat. When I asked him if that was where some of the escaping coolant could have been going and his response was "sure, it could have been leaving there". I sure don't want to fix everything up if the block is junk. I can't go to my buddy and find another 230 C.I. flathead sitting under the bench like I might find a more popular motor. Any thoughts?
_________________________
There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!
12 Port Head Manufacturer
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#44008 - 10/01/08 12:58 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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Xerxes
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 166
Loc: north carolina
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MBHD:
Is that technique sometimes referred to as "stiching". Used for cracks in blocks as well as plugs shown in the pictures?
Thanks:
Paul...aka Xerxes
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#44038 - 10/02/08 12:13 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Tommorow AM I will go check it out. The block was magnifluxed and I'll see if I can treat you guys to some pictures.
Hey, BotP, if you need a Bonneville crewman say the word!
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#44050 - 10/02/08 09:40 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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I've been to Bonneville three times now. In 1992 as a rider of a tubo-charged 1954 Pan-bottomed Shovelhead as a rider (extremly cool ). I was fortunate enough to go 173.5 MPH but I was way off the class record. Even so I think that is one of the highlights of my life along with seeing my son born. In 2006 and 2007 I was a crew member on the J&P Cycles Express Motorcycle streamliner.
I'm the fat guy with the big hat on in front. In 2006 we set an AMA national record of 179 and change. It really doesn't sound that fast but it was pretty cool to do it with 79 Cubic Inches (1350CC's). We surely did work out butts off. This year we didn't go due to too many other things going on with the owner. Once you have been a participant at Bonneville, it will draw you back.
I'm kind of disgusted with myself because I let my wife talk me out of what I wanted to do in the first place, which was ditch the flattie and put an L6 Chev with a 700R4 in it. I have couple cool things I got from Tom Lowe to turbocharge a 250 I have in the corner under the bench. This 250 ran before it was pulleed, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. One of the reasons I decided to redo the orignal motor was I kind of got real interested in the 3-speed with overdrive that came in the "longroof". I thought to get this together for reasonably cheep and collect the rest of the bits for the turbo set up over a longer period of time, and enjoy the car as I did. I'm sure if I put the Borg Warner overdrive on E-bay it would fetch a pretty good price. I really like the looks of Eileen and wil not give it up.
Choices, choices.......
Edited by Xea I.I. #5390 (10/02/08 09:41 PM)
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#44062 - 10/03/08 01:24 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Well, scrap that block..... Cracked in 4 headbolt to water jacket places in the center and 1 very nasty crack from one vavle seat toward the cylinder. What makes it so bad is the crack is also visable under the seat in the port. I about fell over when the estamate I got for repair is $ 800.00. I called Vintage Power Wagons (the place I had the head and other goodies on the way from) not only will they accept the un-needed parts back, they have complete recently run low milage (10,000 to 15,000 miles) engines from head to pan for $ 750.00. They also have NOS blocks available for $ 950.00. That sounds like a much more realistic way to go.....
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#44077 - 10/04/08 07:26 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Vintage Power Wagons is located right here in Iowa and have a huge inventory of Mopar flattie stuff. I don't know if they will have anything for your big beast but they sure may.
http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/
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#44083 - 10/04/08 09:10 AM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Beater of the Pack]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Try State Seal in Phoenix. (602) 437-1532
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#44232 - 10/09/08 07:56 PM
Re: Flattie
[Re: Xea I.I. #5390]
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Xea I.I. #5390
Active BB Member
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Central City, Iowa.
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Het BotP, did Vintage Power Wagons have any goodies for you?
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Moderator: Webmaster
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Sorry to say this year was my first Speed Week, but I'll never miss it again! It is where I should have been for years. I just want to build something we can have fun with and try to go faster every year. If I start slow there is a better chance for success. I want to involve my sons and friends. It would be good to make new friends too.
