Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Camshaft selection time.....

Looking for hands on experience. I realize this is a touchy subject, but I'm looking for some objective opinions on camshafts from those that have used them. I'm not trying to start a "Theory" thread. Just want to hear from those that have used these and can tell me first hand what they think.

I plan on choosing the cam for use in a street driven 292. Looking for a decent hop-up cam. Not looking for choppy idle or big vacuum losses. will be running an overdrive 200R4 with 3.42 ratio rearend. Want decent fuel economy (for a hot rod) and still want to have some good power.

I've heard that you can use a 194-250 cam in a 292 if you don't run a mech fuel pump, so that's what I'm possibly looking into doing. Most likely looking at a hydraulic cam unless someone can tell me why I shouldn't.

These are the ones I'm looking at:
Isky #231256 (256dur, .492in, .492ex)$165
Isky #231262 (262dur, .488in, .488ex) $165
CompCams #61-232-4 (252dur, .474in, .474ex)$145
CompCams #61-233-4 (260dur, .489in, .489ex)$145
Mercruiser stock cam (unknown cam specs) $120

any other suggestions? Thanks.

whats the stock 292 specs look like?

252 can usually net more off idle tq but sucks worse than a stocker in upper rpm.

What is the weight of the vehicle?

Engine modifications?

Id say the 262 is a little on the high side for optimal mpg, the Isky 256 supercam should do the trick, depending on your engine modifications.

Personally Id probably flip a coin on the 256 and the 260 and hope it leaned towards the 256 for mpg reasons.



If you wanna give me all the cam events, and all your engine modifications, I could run the numbers through this desktop dyno someone give me, the end numbers (hp/tq) wont be exact but youll have a good idea of how each will vary from the other....if possible, give me the specs for the stock camshaft. You might be suprised and find it to be fairly good, maybe it just need a little advance. Lemme know.

Any cam Listed for any lowDeck motor (194,230,250) will act smaller in a 292. and Just the OP. for the specks of a 292 cam in a lowDeck will act bigger. The speck on a marine cam 439/437 with a 112 lobe center seperation.

Trump, I am running the old Wolverine (Blue Racer) cam #WG-1178 in my 250. Its pretty mild but bigger then stock. The bottom end is less then it was, but it pulls better up to my 4800 shift rpm. Adv. dur. 260/270 and at .050" 194/204 110 centerline .464" I / .490" E lift. I recently installed Rhoads lifters which really helped in the idle and low rpm power. I believe this cam was the stock replacement for a 292 or it was the first option in the 292 listing. Larry has a good point about the small and large engine difference. You will be able to run a much bigger 250 cam in a 292 and still get away with a decent idle. Your fuel mileage will suffer once you get away from stock.

My engine is in a '37 Chevy truck with a Lokar shifter mounted to the T350 trans tail housing. With stock lifters, the rough idle would really shake the shifter, to the point I would have to hold it while idling. Since adding the Rhoads lifters, it sits real steady, just as the stock cam did.

In case you don't know about Rhoads hydraulic lifters, they have slots cut in them so at low rpm they bleed off oil, reducing the cam lift and duration. Around 2500 rpm (depends on valve spring pressure) they pump up and work just like stock lifters restoring the cam back to it original lift and duration. Dad and I have been using them for years in our Pontiac's with good results.

I run a 3.08 gear with 235/75R15 radials. I can run down the highway at 70 mph and still get 16 to 17 mpg even with three carburetors, and still pull away from lights pretty quick. Drag strip times are in the 17.90 74 mph range with a 3400 lb truck pushing a ton of air! Not to shabby for a all most stock engine with only 210 cfm worth of carburetors! Joe

Has anybody tried anything from Lunati? I talked to them and they said they could do a custom grind for 292.

They call it a 211/217 with .514in and .530ex, said power range is in the 1500-5500rpm range

Thinking about giving them a try cost is supposed to be $202 through Jegs.

trump,

i am running this custom cam in my turbo engine. only saying this as food for thought.

cam is custom ground by compcams for a turbo setup. the specs are .521/.512 int/exh, duration @.50 are 218 int/ 212 exh, lobe separation 114 cam # is C62 5432/5211 H 114.

this cam would still work very good in a n/a setup like yours. it idles nice and has good low end tq. i rev it to 4800 in my setup. if you have one made for a n/a setup maybe go with a 112 lobe seperation.

i do not like to see cam's with more than .500 lift for a street engine. i feel it wears the valve train too fast.

prior to my turbo setup, i had a 4 bbl and headers with a clifford 270 cam. it had a noticable idle for sure in a 292. tom

Talked to clifford about the 264 and the 270.

He said that the lift on those cams is .518in and .518ex
Said the lope shouldn't be out of hand, but it is noticable, yet still provides good vacuum. $199

He brought up an interesting point that I'm not sure if it matters or not.... Lunati and CompCams are using V8 grinds, just adapted to I6. I wonder how big of a difference there is....Getting quite the range of prices, and it's getting harder to sort through it all.

Clifford is full of it.
They tell you that BS so you will buy there products.

Clifford cams are V-8 grinds.

If you want a siamesed port special grind,that is a different story,like Hendrick had in there Box Nova.
Clifford does not offer that type of grind.

So basically what I am saying is they are all V-8 grinds.

MBHD

trump
One other thing you need to make sure of,And That the cam is drilled for a retaining bolt. Comp cams also has a Timing set for
Our L6s Which the cam is cut for a Snap ring and the gear is
machined for the snap ring as well.ALSO BE sure the Gear is
HEATED before installing.(alum gear)Other wise the cam will shave the center of the gear and you'll end up with a NOT so snug
fit. Those price you have on those cams is that With lifters??
or with out??? If you look more closely to the comp cams You can
buy KITS. as far as i know most others sell with out lifters.

If i can be of any help I can get cam & lifters as a Kit. In any
grind you want.


Tlowe
as for lifts over 500 on the street. I never had or seen a
problem that. and I ran a 583/607 on the street for over 14yrs
the motor was over 17yrs old before I desided freshen it up.

Tlowe
as for lifts over 500 on the street. I never had or seen a
problem that. and I ran a 583/607 on the street for over 14yrs
the motor was over 17yrs old before I desided freshen it up.
[/quote]

X2
The valve guides are a little short but they still last a long time.
MBHD

AMEN to that! Read my "My 250 is Alive!" thread to see what happens if you don't heed this advice. Cost me a bundle, wiped a Clifford cam (which came with no specs, no instructions, no tapped hole)

Bought a Comp Cams with lifter kit. Drilled and tapped for retaining bolt. New timing gears. Froze cam, boiled aluminum gear and pushed it on. Easy break in. ONLY WAY TO GO.

Clifford doenst have a positive reputation in the inline ford community...I cant say Ive had a major issue with their product...but when it comes to asking question...they say some of goofiest crap. I recently discussed header design with one rep, he swore up and down the design I was talking about was futile and inefficient and they would NEVER produce such a header, so I give him their part number. Priceless.

Offer still stands, you give me the cam events and youll have a more real world idea of how each camshaft will interact over the rpm range, otherwise, your guess is as good as anyone elses.

Never ask clifford performance reps, questions, their product isnt bad, their rep knowledge is kinda scary.

I'm planning a relatively stock build. 500cfm 4bbl carb. Stock compression, bore, stroke, etc. Stock combustion chamber, stock size valves. 200R4 trans with 2800rpm converter. 3.42 rear gear on a '40 studebaker.

Larry- The cam prices I stated are without lifters. I planned on just getting a set of off the shelf hydraulic SBC lifters anyway. Kit would be nice if there is any savings.

Kerry- Does the compCams one come with the gear retaining hole drilled and tapped from the factory or did you have to do it yourself?

also found that compCams does a special order 292 grind. (218/224) .519in .530ex. They want $203 for that one.

Trump
Personaly I dont think you need more stall speed then what the cam calls for. Most cams that run from Idle to what ever rpm
(ex idle- 5000, idle- 5500 ) wouldn't need any stall speed much over a stock cam would need. Now something that lets say 1500-6000 rpm Could maybe need again lets say a 1200 stall?? But if the cam does'nt start to pull-in till 1500 a Stock stall may very well still work. NOw lets say your running something like
2000-65/7000 then yeah it would be good to step up the stall to
at least a 1500 stall. And alot of this still depends on the
lumpyness of the cam.( lobe seperation) Cams with a 112-114 Have a Very good vacum and Normaly Idle 100% better then a 105,106,
107,109 Lobe seperation.Which normaly have a Pour vacum at idle
and Idle Very ruff and The Higher stall speeds are needed.

Ps I also sent you a PM Trump

only reason I have a 2800 stall converter is because it's the one that came with the trans I bought. I'd have no problem with going with a lower stall TC, but I'm not trying to fork over the bucks for another one.

Maybe I can sell this one and buy a smaller one.....

My opinion on stock torque converters is this,,if you want your vehicle to launch hard,it is not going to do that if your engine is stock w/a 800-1500 rpm stall torque converter.

My 97 Silverado Extra cab w/a 5.7 V-8 stalls to 1100 RPM,I get a 0-60 ft time of 2.4 seconds & cannot spin the tires. 3.42 gear ratio.
Engine is stock & makes 250 HP & 350 ft lbs of torque.

I know if it had @ least 2000 stall I could bring the 60 ft time down to 2.1- 2.2 range. Which would be a big improvement.

Smaller engines get more stall & they need more stall to get the thing to move.

Stock Vega (4 cylinder) has a 10" converter in it,I think it would stall to 2200-2400 rpm,I put it behind my mild built 250 & it stalled to 2900-3000. Really helped my Camro take off quicker than if I had a 1500 stall.
It did not run hot @ all,it drove like a lower stall converter except when I would hold the brakes & give it some throttle.

My Syclone pickup has a 2100 stall converter that is stock,it can only go that high if & hold the brakes hard & boost it up,otherwise it only goes to 1500-1800 rpms driving normal & never gets hot.

There is such a thing of having too loose a converter,but,the way most co's that build them nowadays,they drive like a lower stall converter unless you hammer on it.
There are inefficient converters & efficient converters,,, shop around wisely for the type that drives like a normal low stall converter untill you hammer the throttle.

For a street car that wants the best of both worlds,I suggest a 4 speed automatic w/a lockup converter. You can have say 2500 (or more) stall when you need it & it can be locked up & still get desent gas mileage.

Guys run in there 7004R's Syclones & Typhoons a 9/11" converter they stall anywhere from 2800-3500,never a complaint about them running too hot. It has an 11" clutch area that locks when engaged.

Now, if you do not care if you run a 2.4- 2.8 60 ft time, then install a 1000 rpm stall converter.

Two cents thrown & then some,take it however you like :-)

MBHD

Hey trump

I was playing with my free camQuest (i have CD on the way) So i should have some better tools to use.But anyway all I could go with a 250 or smaller could not get the 292 into the Free software.
But this is what I cam up with BOTH cams you showed from comp.
9-1 compression,A Lump ported head(1.94int & 1.6 exh.) 500 cfm 4b carb small tube headers with Mufflers.The 252 -474 lift(232-4 252H) cam neted in about 220 hp @ 4500 RPM peak torque 280 ftlb @ 3500 rpms.
The 233-4 260H---- 260 - 489 lift. peak HP about 236 @ 5000 rpm
Peak torque 283 @ 4000 rpms

Mind you these are for a 250 and is only a close guess. the 292 would surely have a different out come. It was only to give you
a better idea as to what you mite????????? be looking at.

Ps a 230 came close to having the same numbers (hp & torque)a 194
came out just a hair over 200 hp with 9-1 compression
a 194 with 10-1 came up right around 230hp?????? this was with
the 260H cam. small tube headers & muffler interesting. But it was at 5500 rpm Which is Over the cam rpm band specks which is
1000-5000 rpms even more interesting HUH????

I need the actual cam events, Ill go as far as punching them in the program but Im not gonna go look them up...meet me half way and we'll see what we can see...without the stock cam specs to run a baseline, this is probably futile, no matter the program.

On a wild guess, Id say the stock cam would compare nicely to a couple of those aftermarket selections if it had a little advance on it but without the cam events who knows.





I could use the example, about how I helped my lil bro drop a 5.3 into his 96 x cab sierra last week, smaller than the 5.7,all stock and it would show the 5.7 who its daddy is, why, it makes more power. Plain and simple. Doesnt that debunk the smaller engine needs more stall theory?

inline300
Unless they have made better improvements to that desktop dyno
What i had many years ago was way Off. Either way to high Or way to low. what i had was desktop dyno 2000. Mike Kirby even tried
and even he said the same thing. And He has a realy dyno to test
it up against. The cam Quest software was REAL close to what i
had running before this new rebuild. And i feel it is much better
then the old desktop dyno 2000.

I stated that in the original post, the hp and tq wouldnt be exact but it will still show you how they each would vary, especially with a stock baseline.


I can get it pretty close to my stock engine specs...sooo...I dunno...Im also using close to exact stock head flow. With that said, its just as difficult to get two real world dynos to reflect simillar numbers...so in the end, its gonna be you vs your baseline on the same machine.


Which if you want perfect, Id need that info too.

while we are on this topic.... I'm going to have to do a total rebuild on the 292. Does anybody have a good source for master rebuild kits? I've found a couple on ebay.

Truck kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150284726439

Marine Kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=200244928831

checked Autozone and Advance Auto and they both want close to $500 w/out the pistons. I don't plan on using the provided cam in either situation.

Don't shop for parts. Shop for a good machine shop.
He will have his ideas about what will work and what won't. If you take him parts that he considers junk, he won't back the work.
He may even have good prices.
As an example, when I rebuilt my 292, I looked around for LPG pistons. I found prices of $50 - $80 each. The shop supplied them at $40 each.
Even if the shop buys at cost and makes a couple of bucks from the parts they sell you, both of you will be happy.

inline300

Im not trying to beat you down or bash Or anything like that Or
the desktop dyno. I also ran the specks of my 17yr old motor
And they were realy close to what we had figured the motor was
and It also came Pretty close to what my Chassi dyno numbers were
on the motor. So i just think the cam Quest pretty close to what
I figure the motor was when it was built back then. But either
can give a guy a good Ball park idea as to what they may have or
will get. With X parts combind together.

I believe you should really take your transmission final gear ratio into this cam equation. I found the OD of a 200R to be.67 which means a final gear ratio of 2.29 when your in OD cruising. You didn't give us the tire size or weight but what ever cam you choose consider advancing it 4 to 6 degrees to get the use of it at lower RPM. My son and I put in a "RV" grind in a 350 once, 258 duration and .460" lift. 350 Turbo trans. 3.55 rear. It was a dog. Advanced the cam 6 degrees and you couldn't catch it. Towed my 40 Chev on a tandum trailer like it wasn't there. Just something to think about..........Good Luck

JoeH,
I am about to build a 250 with the same cam you have, so I am trying to make some predictions about how it will run. Can you fill in a few details about your 37?
Exhaust - iron [which one?] or headers [which ones]
Intake - Offy 3x1v? Other?
Carbs - which ones / venturi size?
Exhaust - single or dual, pipe size & muffs?
Rest of engine, stock 250 or just .030 over or etc?
Much thanks

northern auto parts or PAW performance.

DeuceCoupe, My '37 truck is a show/street truck. I used to race Pontiac's years ago and Dad still does so thats why I have drag strip numbers. I also like to run it once or twice a year to make sure its still in tune and running like it should.

As I stated, the engine has stock parts other then the cam and intake. Its a .030" 250 with stock replacement pistons, somewhere around 8 to 1 compression. The head is stock with zero modifications. The intake is home made with three Rochester Model H carburetors off of a Corvair. The exhaust is stock cast iron with 2 1/4" pipe, muffler, and tail pipe. The transmission is a stock T350 with a 3.08 rear axle.

With the drag strip numbers and some calculating, its making 145 HP at the flywheel and 120 something at the wheels.

I have had headers on it, which were to big, and stock intake and exhaust. Each time out it ran the same numbers. But each time out I only shift 4400 so as to not hurt anything. I have not run yet with the Rhoads lifters. It should be a bet quicker but not much faster.

Joe

Can someone explain what 'advancing a cam' means?

In simple terms, it means to advance the camshaft timing.

In general, advancing the cam will pull the power band down to a lower rpm, retarding it tends to move it up in rpm.

On a cam card, the actual degrees of opening and closing is shown as advertised or at .050".

This is what my card shows;
BTC -8, ABC 22, BBC 37, ATC -13.

These are the timing locations in degrees of the flywheel where the cam makers wants the valves to open and close. You use these when you degree a cam in using a degree wheel and dial indicator. If the cam is ground right, you could install it with a straight key and line up the marks on the gears. If you found the cam was off a bit, you could put a offset key in the camshaft and move the timing from a 1/2 up to 5 or 6 degrees either way. The idea is to get as close to the cams timing as you can.

When advancing a cam, you would use the same offset keys and move the whole timing event ahead or behind of what the cam card shows. Its trial and error as to how much you move it. To really tell if it works, you need some drag strip times before and after the changes.


Joe

Thanks Joe, that's what I thought. That said, my new Comp Cam, SHOULD be degreed correctly with the stock key...right? Also redoing the key on our Chevy 6's is problematic because of the press on timing gear...right?

Your cam should be all right. The press on gear is harder to work with, but it can be done. As some of the others have stated, some of the new cams come with hole drilled for a bolt and washer, just like every other engine, to hold the gear in place. With this, you could change them around pretty easy. Joe

You can buy offset crank woodrift keys to advance or retard your camshaft.

Or they sell a set (cam, crankshaft gears) that the crankshaft gear has three different degrees on them,, advance,straight-up or retard, you do not pull off your cam gear, just the crank gear.

The reason you degree a camshaft is to make sure the timing events are where they are supposed to be in according to your cam card.
It is possible the cam is ground retarded or advanced or correct.
It also verifys the crank & cam gears are machined correctly.

MBHD

JoeH,
Ok that makes sense, I can get my computer to give 17.91 at 74mph for your truck, guessing the weight, area, and CD. The engine program I wrote gives 174hp gross, 146hp net, and 109hp rear wheel.
If I use a bone stock 250/"155" hp instead, the same truck runs 18.36 at 72mph so that is the gain I calculate from your homemade 3*1v and the cam.
Questions:
1. When you said you tried headers that ran the same but were "too big", what was too big, ie what what the primary diameter and lengths if you know?
2. On the homemade 3*1v, was the whole intake fabbed or did you just mill the stock iron ends flat, and then what did you use to mount the two end carbs? (I am thinking of making one myself!)
thanks again

The truck weighs 3400lbs, so you are to high on the hp. I use Dads Pro version Performance Trends engine analyzer and drag strip analyzer programs. It all ways comes out to 145 flywheel. My header was 1 3/4" tubes, short primary length into a 3" collector. Our program wants 1.5 about 30" long with a 10" long 2.5 collector, using the actual air flow numbers. Dad also has a Superflow air bench for checking heads. The intake is all home made using the stock intakes measurements. Each carburetor flows 70 cfm, so all three work as one. Together they are not as big as a single Monojet. Joe

You might find that an "RV" camshaft has simillar specs as a stock camshaft advanced.

My truck actually had a better driveability feel with the stock replacement cam from Federal Mogal. Its kind of a universal cam for a lot years displacements. I guess after all these post about cams, its dtill up to the end user and how you use the vehical. Anything choice other then stock, moves the power band up the scale, and all most always you will loose in the lower rpm range. I know I did and mine is a small cam. Joe