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#43058 - 08/19/08 10:59 AM Injection system for 302?
OldCarKook OldCarKook Active BB Member Registered: 12/09/01 Posts: 46 Loc: Sheldonville, Mass	I'm looking for options and experience with injection systems and methods for a GMC 302. I'm building up another 302 and want to go a different direction from the one I went with on my first 302 build using carburetors to deliver fuel. I'm familiar (only vaguely) with Hillborn injection and wonder if I can't build up something from scratch that might better suit my need for more speed. Who has some experience and ideas here that willing to share some information? I found some interesting reading on Moon Engineering's fake strombergs injection system on a flathead Ford motor and can't see why I couldn't adapt that approach to a 302 intake. Anybody been down this road before? _________________________ Rob English II Member #2141 "You can't put a price on a good time"
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#43059 - 08/19/08 11:30 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: OldCarKook]
jimmy six #35 jimmy six #35 Active BB Member Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 274 Loc: So Cal	I'm sure that many with different experience than mine will chime in but since a stock head GMC has shared ports and an uneven firing order direct port mechanical injection complete combustion is only possible in cylinders 3 and 4. With the other 4 there will be 2 lean and 2 rich due to the fuel continously going in and having different pulse sequences. I would see no problem a throttle body like a Holley or the ones Moon has made from 97 lookalikes. I have used 2 different mechanicals both Algon units converted to Hilborn/Enderle style with fair results but never as good as a carb yet. Without unlimited dyno time I have not had the time to perfect injectors on gasoline but I'm sure others have. Nitro or methanol works well or as good as can be expected. A good computer controlled timed injection should work well and I'm sure there are computer programmers to make then work..Good Luck _________________________ 216.158 MPH 12-Port 302 GMC on 70% 171.0 MPH 302 stock head on gasoline 7 years later
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#43099 - 08/22/08 04:13 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: jimmy six #35]
Tony P Tony P Active BB Member Registered: 04/30/00 Posts: 496 Loc: Western New Yak state	In general,the traditional Hillborn mechanical injection is not user friendly for street use. Rob,There's lots of info on the various throttle bore injection systems adaptable to older engines using GM TBI componets and after market control boxes,Megasquirt? Holley and Edelbrock make port and TBI injection for V-8's.And I think some are universal and may be adaptable to inline engines,about 2 grand when all said and done. Injection won't necessarily make more power but it can be more effecient at part throttle,especially port injection,on modified engines.And port injection doesn't require a heated intake manifold for good in town performance.That's good cause it lowers the detonation factor if you're running high compression ratios.
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#43107 - 08/22/08 09:30 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Tony P]
Beater of the Pack Beater of the Pack Active BB Member Registered: 10/06/07 Posts: 2487 Loc: Northern Nevada	The demo that Marc and I did Tuesday in Wendover convinced me that the GM TBI can be used on these old inlines. We had a few problems. A vacuum leak at the adapter, keeping the fuel line from the demo tank hooked to the doner line from the GM system, and throttle linkage mounting. This was a total cobble/demo just to show what could be done. But we had it running in less than an hour! I'm working on pics and a post now. Megasquirt is the key here. Check out this thread . Re: Bonneville.... TBI conversion - installation demo _________________________ "I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
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#43177 - 08/26/08 07:39 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Beater of the Pack]
Edy Edy Active BB Member Registered: 06/15/06 Posts: 213 Loc: Brazil	Are you talking about mechanical fuel injection or eletronic fuel injection? If it´s about eletronic, check on google for mega squirtle! if you have de budget you may want check for the Haltech or AEM, if you are very rich you can check for Motec! :p Edy
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#43180 - 08/26/08 01:04 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Edy]
efi-diy efi-diy Active BB Member Registered: 11/21/04 Posts: 1385 Loc: Calgary Alberta Canada	Bang for the buck it will be hard to beat the junkyard TBI and megasquirt combo Tom and myself demo'ed at the inliners BBQ in Wendover.. All said and done $1200 will be enough including a wideband O2 sensor so you can tune it properly. _________________________ 51 GMC 4.2 turbo Can't solved today's problems using the same technology/thinking that created them
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#43182 - 08/26/08 01:19 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: efi-diy]
tlowe #1716 tlowe #1716 12 PORT ADVERTISER Active BB Member Registered: 04/01/04 Posts: 2327 Loc: Dysart, Iowa	here is another, although not a junkyard unit. it is new and a complete system. fully tunable also. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail...15&autoview=sku or this one for more flow. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail...15&autoview=sku _________________________ 12 PORT ADVERTISER http://www.inliners.org/Advertisers/index.html trbo writeup http://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=43253&fpart=1
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#43200 - 08/27/08 04:35 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: tlowe #1716]
Nexxussian Nexxussian Active BB Member Registered: 06/12/07 Posts: 1335 Loc: Anchorage	Not sure this helps, but, I have a copy of this mag. Hot Rod Cover May 53 Coolest looking setup I've ever 'seen' on an engine like that (seen is in quotes, because the mag is the only place I've ever seen it). _________________________ My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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#43214 - 08/27/08 02:21 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Nexxussian]
jimmy six #35 jimmy six #35 Active BB Member Registered: 08/31/06 Posts: 274 Loc: So Cal	Nex. The picture on the cover of Hot Rod looks like one of the 2 sets I have. The straight one I have is 2-1/4" and the second one is canted and is 2". tlowe. Your Summit direction was the ones Holley makes I was refering to and to me would work on any engine, 4 or 6, They are made for 8 but all would work. I believe Edelbrock makes one too. _________________________ 216.158 MPH 12-Port 302 GMC on 70% 171.0 MPH 302 stock head on gasoline 7 years later
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#43218 - 08/27/08 05:34 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: jimmy six #35]
Drew, II # 4211 Drew, II # 4211 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/03 Posts: 1774 Loc: Glassboro,NJ,USA	That is some engine. Anybody have the article on it? _________________________ Drew Mid-Atlantic Chapter
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#43219 - 08/27/08 07:28 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
Hoyt Hoyt Active BB Member Registered: 04/25/05 Posts: 362 Loc: St. Louis, MO	Nexxussian says that he has a copy, as do I. I will scan in the article and make it available. _________________________ Hoyt, Inliner #922
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#43220 - 08/27/08 07:57 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Hoyt]
Hoyt Hoyt Active BB Member Registered: 04/25/05 Posts: 362 Loc: St. Louis, MO	The HRM article did not add much useful information about the fuel injection system on the engine. Does anyone know what happened next? _________________________ Hoyt, Inliner #922
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#43223 - 08/28/08 12:46 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
Nexxussian Nexxussian Active BB Member Registered: 06/12/07 Posts: 1335 Loc: Anchorage	Yeah, I'll have to find the article, I don't recall much being said about the injection itself, aside from it being injected. _________________________ My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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#43226 - 08/28/08 05:28 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
don 1450 don 1450 Active BB Member Registered: 09/21/01 Posts: 491 Loc: Indianapolis, Indiana USA	i have that issue. Don Francisco writes about several inlines in the early 1950s, including extensive treatment of Chevrolet and GMC engines. From 1954 on, the magazine is almost entirely devoted to V-things, since that is where the aftermarket and the advertising money are focused. God's Peace to you. d Inliner #1450
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#43227 - 08/28/08 05:38 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Nexxussian]
Drew, II # 4211 Drew, II # 4211 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/03 Posts: 1774 Loc: Glassboro,NJ,USA	Thanks Hoyt, It's interesting that a 270 was made into a 302 at that time rather then starting with a 302.The builder sure used a variety of manufactured(Packard valves,Cadilac valve springs) and home built parts. Noticed the 2 Stellings breathers ventilating the lifter/pushrod chamber.I'm not sure what may have been accomplished there.Do you know?The 261 I'm rebuilding came with one attached to the valve cover to ventilate thru the upper valve train. That makes more sense to me for pressure relief of the lower end.Maybe I don't understand correctly. Help me out. _________________________ Drew Mid-Atlantic Chapter
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#43229 - 08/28/08 11:00 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Hello, I am new to the forum and in the process of building a vintage looking fuel injection system for my "58" Apache using the Retrotek throttle bodies. Attached are some pictures of the project so far. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8130001.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8130003.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8080135.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8080136.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8140003.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8140004.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8300003.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8300004.jpg Edited by diceman (08/31/08 09:03 AM)
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#43232 - 08/28/08 12:43 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
tlowe #1716 tlowe #1716 12 PORT ADVERTISER Active BB Member Registered: 04/01/04 Posts: 2327 Loc: Dysart, Iowa	diceman. did you make that nice lookin stuff? tom _________________________ 12 PORT ADVERTISER http://www.inliners.org/Advertisers/index.html trbo writeup http://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=43253&fpart=1
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#43233 - 08/28/08 05:14 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: tlowe #1716]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Thanks Tom. I modified the distributor, built the TPS mount, and mounted the fuel pump regulator on the old fuel pump base. The throttle bodies are Retrotek and the regulator is a Holley unit.
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#43243 - 08/28/08 09:25 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
Beater of the Pack Beater of the Pack Active BB Member Registered: 10/06/07 Posts: 2487 Loc: Northern Nevada	diceman, That is good looking stuff! This is why I'm here too much. ( I heard that! ) There are so many folks with so many ideas. At this time I am committed to making a GM TBI/Megasquirt work on my 292 turbo project but that carb looking/Edumunds thing might be an option on the 270 in the '53 that I had planned to supercharge with two one barrel carbs. Marc warned me that my plans might change when I saw the MS work. Life was so simple before I found this site! $\:D$ _________________________ "I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
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#43245 - 08/28/08 09:35 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Beater of the Pack]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Thanks for the kind words. After I get the fuel injection installed and tuned I am planning on adding a McCulloch supercharger that I have. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/94bc_01.jpg Edited by diceman (08/28/08 09:37 PM)
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#43247 - 08/28/08 09:49 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank Active BB Member Registered: 09/23/04 Posts: 4546 Loc: Ca	http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/94bc_01.jpg [/quote] That is a tiny pic. MBHD _________________________ 12 port SDS EFI
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#43248 - 08/28/08 10:25 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Sorry about that Hank. I will try to get a better picture posted this weekend. Check this out. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/bbd2_1.jpg
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#43263 - 08/29/08 08:46 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
GH GH Active BB Member Registered: 10/30/06 Posts: 137 Loc: Springfield, MO	I am not running an inline engine yet but I do run a forked 8 using efi with a MegaSquirt controller, I sure like the way it works.
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#43384 - 09/06/08 10:34 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: GH]
K10 K10 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/04 Posts: 8	Diceman, are the throttle bodies all set for supercharging? Will they already take the extra pressure right out of the box or is modification necessary? Can I assume that the computer will automatically add fuel once the blower is on. If the retrotek's can take the pressure, it sure make the McCulloch and Paxton units much more appealing versus the roots units. _________________________ http://community.webshots.com/user/apacheclimber
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#43418 - 09/08/08 06:22 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: K10]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	K-10, No modifications would be required on the Retrotek throttle bodies. The only thing inside them are the throttle blades and the Bosch style fuel injectors. The injector discharge is below the throttle blades so any leakage around the throttle shafts would be air only. However you would need an ECU that is capable of handling boost applications. Most of the aftermarket units will do so with the proper MAP sensor. (2 bar or 3 bar) Also you will need a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator to overcome the additional pressure in the manifold. Ron http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8130003.jpg Edited by diceman (09/08/08 06:23 AM)
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#43429 - 09/08/08 04:35 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	I got my stub harness, connectors, and terminals from EFI Connection today. Very nice! I furnished them with a list of the circuits that I wanted and they installed a 6' lead in the 3 ECU connectors with the proper GM wire colors. They also furnished the sensor connectors and terminals for the other ends. This way I can route the harness where I like without any splices. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P9170003.jpg
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#43430 - 09/08/08 04:40 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
K10 K10 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/04 Posts: 8	boost referenced fuel pressure regulator Can you elaborate? Type? Brand? I don't understand yet. _________________________ http://community.webshots.com/user/apacheclimber
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#43434 - 09/08/08 06:39 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: K10]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	K-10, Perhaps I should have said "a manifold referenced fuel pressure regulator". For every pound of boost you put into the manifold you must increase the fuel pressure by the same amount to maintain the same fuel flow. Most or all modern fuel injected engines use a diaphragm type regulator with fuel pressure from the pump on one side and a spring on the other. When the fuel pressure overcomes the spring pressure a valve is lifted off its seat and excess fuel is allowed to return to the tank. The spring tension determine the fuel pressure. The spring side of the regulator is connected to the intake manifold. On a non boosted engine the vacuum in the manifold will cancel some of the spring tension and allow the valve seat to be opened more easily therefore reducing the fuel pressure. They do this to lean out the engine during light load or coasting situations. (high vacuum) This also works in reverse. When you add positive pressure (boost) to the manifold it adds to the spring tension and raises the fuel pressure. Here is a picture of the regulator I am using. It is a "Holley" unit. You can see the diaphragm in the middle and the hose barb on top to attach to the manifold. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8140005.jpg Ron Edited by diceman (09/08/08 06:45 PM)
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#43443 - 09/09/08 12:31 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
Nexxussian Nexxussian Active BB Member Registered: 06/12/07 Posts: 1335 Loc: Anchorage	That looks very nice, is that mount made to fit over the fuel pump mount pad (on the block)? _________________________ My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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#43458 - 09/09/08 11:07 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Nexxussian]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Thanks Nexxussian, Yes it does. I am trying to keep the truck looking as vintage as possible. My hope is that at first glance people will not realize that it is fuel injected. Ron
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#44112 - 10/05/08 07:26 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
Basketcase Basketcase Active BB Member Registered: 04/16/02 Posts: 39 Loc: Edgerton Ohio USA	Why not mount a pair of the '82-'84 Corvette/Camaro Crossfire single bbl TBIs on a 2 carb manifold. You would probably have to enlarge the mounting flange as they have a big butterfly. I'd think that they would work fine on a 302. They wouldn't look old but they should offer some good performance on a high performance street build. Tom Edited by Basketcase (10/05/08 07:31 PM) _________________________ Building a '69 C10 short stepside mild custom.
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#44260 - 10/11/08 06:05 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Basketcase]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
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#45554 - 11/29/08 02:27 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Sorry for the long delay on the fuel injection project. I have been busy at the museum and also had to finish a custom hunting buggy before the season is over. I hope to finish all my other obligations for the year in the next week to ten days so I can spend the rest of the year working on this project.(sure)
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#49261 - 04/11/09 07:04 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	I finally got a free weekend to work on the fuel injection project. Started by removing the carb, intake, and exhaust system. (I'm committed now) The Edmund's intake manifold I am using didn't have any grooves for alignment sleeves, so I cut some. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110002.jpg Then I mounted the IAC underneath the manifold. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110004.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110007.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110008.jpg Next I finished the TPS mount and assembled the throttle bodies and manifold. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110014.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110013.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110012.jpg When I installed it on the engine there was a slight clearance problem with the Fenton exhaust manifold. Nothing a die grinder won't fix though. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4110017.jpg
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#49314 - 04/13/09 07:41 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Got a little more done today. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4130001.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4130002.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4130003.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4130004.jpg http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P4130005.jpg
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#49322 - 04/13/09 10:17 PM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
Beater of the Pack Beater of the Pack Active BB Member Registered: 10/06/07 Posts: 2487 Loc: Northern Nevada	This is looking good! Although I am not a fan of things that look like something else I do think this is cool! And once again someone else will be on the road before me. $\:\($ _________________________ "I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
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#49327 - 04/14/09 04:25 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Beater of the Pack]
Drew, II # 4211 Drew, II # 4211 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/03 Posts: 1774 Loc: Glassboro,NJ,USA	I'm the "old fashion" just plain carb type,but I do admire the skill it takes to develop this newer style of old inlines.One question: What manufacture is your fuel pump? Is that modified by you too? _________________________ Drew Mid-Atlantic Chapter
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#49330 - 04/14/09 06:20 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
diceman diceman Active BB Member Registered: 08/27/08 Posts: 46 Loc: Texas	Thanks for the comments! Quote: What manufacture is your fuel pump? Is that modified by you too? That is actually the fuel pump regulator that I mounted on an old fuel pump base. http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee330/diceman50/Hank%20fuel%20injection/P8140005.jpg Quote: And once again someone else will be on the road before me. I don't know if that is true or not. This is going to be a big project. Since I am using Fenton Manifolds the exhaust system will need to be redone with duals.I am planning on doing it with stainless steel mandrel bends. I am also going to finish my A/C and Gear Vendors overdrive install while I'm at it.
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#49331 - 04/14/09 06:55 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: diceman]
Drew, II # 4211 Drew, II # 4211 Active BB Member Registered: 08/10/03 Posts: 1774 Loc: Glassboro,NJ,USA	Now see! That's ingenuity I admire. Very clever use of the old fuel pump base. _________________________ Drew Mid-Atlantic Chapter
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#49335 - 04/14/09 08:34 AM Re: Injection system for 302? [Re: Drew, II # 4211]
Beater of the Pack Beater of the Pack Active BB Member Registered: 10/06/07 Posts: 2487 Loc: Northern Nevada	Yep, I'll bend my rule for this one. It's fun to try to figure out what the thing you thought you recognized really is. What is it in? _________________________ "I wonder if God created man because he was disappointed in the monkey?" Mark Twain
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