Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Bonneville.... TBI conversion - installation demo

Larry,

Take the entire fuel system including the tank, and ALL the wiring even if you don't use the entire harness - its a good source of wire. Also take the coil and dist. for the ign. module.


If this is going into a 250/292 if you get the '81 calif. dist. then its a true plug and play for ign. control.

The Alternator if its good has a decent output rating and much better than the early SI models. The front pulley swaps for a v belt OK.

Well I know i won't be needing the Tank. Because I already have a fuel cell in the car.
efi-diy if you are in the clubs roster how about droping me a PM
Thats if you don't mind a phone call from me.
Thanks

Got the harness stripped of the unused stuff. Almost ready to go.

Still having trouble sealing the intake manifold, but it will happen. I am looking forward to this. I might be interested in the harness and whatever you don't need.

Harness will be ready to go tonight - need to pick up some fuse holders and alligator clips.

We'll need 2 3/8" studs to hook the gnd. ring termnals (qty.2) up.

So final wire count:

gnd. ring terminals - 2
battery connection - 1
tach connection (fuel only) - 1
ignition switch hot in run & crank - 2 (1 needed, wide band O2 - 1)
O2 sensor connector - 1
Coolant sensor - 1 plug

If using the Calif. '81 spark control dist. to control spark its almost plugn and play.

The tach, ign. sw and battery/gnd connections are really the only splices into the vehicle electrical system for fuel only control.

99% ready here, need to configure the megasquirt and add 2 ring terminals to hook up the fuel pump.

89% ready here. Waiting on new rear main seal. Still have to reseal Intake, adjust carb and timing. Then back to Kat's Fabworks for mufflers and 02 bung. I busted a lowering block showing off but that's a quick fix. I'll be ready.

Unrelated, really, but I just got a GM TBI setup untangles and running nicely on my 232ci AMC inline six in my 1963 Rambler Classic.

It was a Howell "258 Jeep" kit I got from a fellow AMCer who ended up not using it.

I did it at the same time as a valve job (200K miles on propane, lots of valve recession but otherwise find and the bottom end is perfect).

I had stuck an old Carter YF on it after I yanked all the LPG stuff off (after 20 years on LPG!), for the TBI setup I had to install "late model" (1980's) aluminum 2bbl intake (BBD pattern) and a bunch of water plumbing, etc.

I'd yanked the gasoline tank and pitched it decades ago, but imagine my luck, I found a 63 classic in a local junkyard!! and it had a good unrusted gas tank!! I cleaned it out, and added a return line to it.

All THAT crap took some 40 hours of work. The Howell took probably 8. It worked first thing, EXCEPT it ran super-crazy rich. Howell was very helpful when I called!

The problem was the hose from the return line to the tank kinked in a too-tight radius. It was open when I installed it, but I guess the hose collapsed with time. I re-routed it and all's well.

I'll check the tuning when I've finished untangling it. The kit was for a 258, and it's on a 232. The motor's fairly high compression (9.5:1) and a stock 1970 cam and the old Borg Warner M35 auto trans. The maps may need tweaking but it's close enoug to drive well.

This was my first EFI. I got the kit cheap! Glad I went with it. I've got more cars... I picture Megasquirt in my future...

Tom,

Can you figure out where we can hang the jerry can and the pump which should be close to the can. Then get enough 5/16" and 3/8" hose to run from 3' from the TBI (I have about 3' of GM fuel line) to where every the can is getting hung. Make sure the fuel hose is rated for EFI,I think its 30R4 on the hose but check with a good parts guy to be sure. I hate engine fires.

Marc

This is about right, running the fuel lines is the longest part of the process. If you start with a GM harness count on 8-12 hours of adjusting the length to suit the installation. The upside is that you can still lump around on the carb until your ready.

For folks that are not 100% comfortable with EFI - leave the stock fuel/pickup in place..

I did the first time I converted to EFI, but I was also going from here to St Paul MN.. a 2 day drive on a new system so I wanted to be able to convert back to the Qjet in a hurry.

After a few months of have the Qjet bounce around it ended up on the shelf..

Marc,Lets put the can in the bed. I'll get hose at work. Do they both need to be pressure line or just the 3/8? Tom

Tom,

The 3/8 supply line needs to be rated for pressure, the return line needs to be rated for pressure also in case the return line gets plugged (kinked) then the whole system goes to what ever pressure the fuel pump will put out. Some method of holding the jerry can in place and both hoses in the jerry can will be needed as the return line has pressure behind it and we don't want it coming out of the can. A bunch of plastic wire ties will be handy to tie things up away from moving/hot parts.

From the throttle body there is about 3' of braided hose then about 2-3' of hard line with the pressure side having the stock fuel filter installed, and then about 1' of hard line past the filter. We can adjust the hard line on-site, I have the correct EFI fuel clamps.

Can you bring about 15' of 14ga. wire and a hand full of butt connectors in case we need to extend the fuel pump wires. I don't have an air cleaner for the TBI but I do have the air cleaner spacer and will bring it with me. If you want to run an air cleaner then bring a chunk if 1/4 threaded rod and a hacksaw. We should be able to reuse your carb base gasket to put under the TBI adapter. I think this should be all the details.


I really looking forward to getting this done...

We're really going to do this! I'll make a check list tonight of the final (we hope) purchases and acquisitions, and another list for modifications not yet completed. Except for a run Friday to the Hot August Nights swap meet my friend Vic and I will be spending all our time on the '53 until it's ready. It will be our transportation and home while there. We may be asking for favors! Tom

If you guys see any Z34 Caviler hood vents could you pick them up for me?

I believe they are around the year 1993-1995

Thanks
MBHD

Tom,

If you get a chance find a TBI V8 truck (running or for parts) and see what would be needed to hook up the throttle cable. We've come this far it would be a shame not to drive the truck a bit. Oh - don't forget the jerry can and gas... 5 gal's is good size.

Marc

At work tomorrow I'll pick up fuel hose, wire, and connecters. Do you mean the old military jerry can? Do you need the large opening to get the pump inside? I think I have one of those that doesn't leak. I have an '89 GMC ( remember the 4 piles ) that I can check the throttle cable on to see how to adapt it to the '53. I'm not worried about an air cleaner for the short time we'll be running this. If I change my mind I'll rob the one from the '89. It's still a driver at this point. We're closing in on this!

Marc, Fuel line rated for 50 psi is 30R7 @ $1.29 '. Fuel line rated for 185 psi is J30R9 @ $499'. The J30R9 is for fuel injection, is that what we need? Hank, I wrote those down and will keep an eye out Friday. What is a fair price?

30R7 is fine. No need spending extra $$.

We'll mount the pump outside the fuel can. Any 5 gallon fuel can will work as long as we can get the hoses inside.

I set up a little outboard motor fuel tank for projects like this and starting all my cars so that I would always have fresh fuel instead of the old stuff in the vehicles tank and it works real well. So if you do that you can use it around the house when you get back also.Found new plastic tank at Academy very reasonable.
Wish I was going to be there, been several years since I have been out there,Jesse "Leroy"

With what I save on fuel line I'll fix up a can and a means to hold it in place.

10 days and counting...

10 days and counting...

Let's count backwards for a day or two. Oh well, Vic can sit in the bed and work on stuff on the way! We'll get it done.

We did it! I got back from Bonneville last night. ( I hated to leave ) Not a lot of pictures but I'll clean them up and post later today. For two guys from different countries that had never met planning something on this site that took place at a picnic full of rowdy Inliners in the windy dusk at the end of a long race day it went really well. Marc is a very sharp guy. He was wrenching/keyboarding when I had to head home yesterday. More later, Tom

Here is a link to pictures of the TBI conversion. They don't show a lot. The first 8 show Marc and Vic hooking things up and Marc setting up his lap top. The others are shots of the wrecking yard parts from the '89 GM van and prep done on the 270 to make it ready. We just did the fuel and didn't even install the o2 sensor. I was windy and almost dark when we got started. in about an hour it was running and Marc was able to dial it in enough to show that this could be made to work very well. Jerry Hoffmann from DYI Auto Tune was there and assured me that he would be glad to help solve any problems. I am convinced enough that I'm saving up to buy the Megasquirt stuff for the turbo 292 project. I'll have to learn how to use the computer program but the actual installation doesn't worry me at all any more. Paring down the wire harness and making things will take some time.
http://picasaweb.google.com/sixpics/270GMCTBIConversion?authkey=_SJszi-f2Mw

You're in good company with DIY Auto Tune .Gary Hart's record breaker.

http://www.diyautotune.com/cars/customer/gary_hart_studebaker.htm

Gary Hart is known to all Studebaker guys. The Studebaker Driver's Club is another great group of people who share their knowledge,time, and even parts in a pinch. I got involved with them while helping my son with his '54 Stude Wagon. By the way someone at the Picnic was talking to me about a '55 stude wagon. I wish we had been able to talk more. If he sees this I hope he will contact me. Tom

http://picasaweb.google.com/sixpics/JakeSStude02?authkey=1FVSQT1nnno

Tom,

Thanks for bringing your truck, it was good prep on your part that helped make things go smoothly.

We did have a small vacumm leak between the manifold and adapter plate that normally would have been fixed before trying to tune the idle, but lacking time we had to compensate. The effect was at low idle the vacumm leak ( you could hear it whistling) was telling the computer the throttle was wide open which under normal usage would mean go rich ... well it did and we were chucking out bricketttes ... so I had to make a fast mod to the fuel table to remove fuel. Once done we were able to get it to idle ok and wing the throttle a few times and I think it was pretty clean at least it sounded good. Then the high pressure supply line popped off twice which terminated the drive portion we had planned.
With another 1/2 hour (and less wind) we would have had a decent drivable tune.

As Tom metioned earlier overall it went very well all things condisdered and I was satisifed with the outcome.

I do have the tune up saved for the megasquirt and it would be a decent starting point for anyone doing a TBI conversion. Perhaps our webmaster could post the file somewhere...?

Marc, Thank you for putting this together. It was fun! The TBI is setting on the 292 turbo mockup. I know it will work now. (in stages) Yea, a few more minutes and a few less leaks and we would have had a driver. I learned a lot, Thanks again. Are you home or still on the road? How did you do with the Opel? That was quite a row of inlines in the pits. That was my first time for Speed week and I will never miss it again!

Tom,

I'm still on the road - heading home in the morning - 8 hours of fighting campers on a 2 lane...

The opel went 190 out hte back door on the short course and will go faster, we'rre still way early in the tuning process and on the 3rd full run went 5 mph faster than the old OHC pontiac. Mechanical problems sent us packing. The boys have some homework todo to find the root cause and fix it. I'll let the car owners fill in the details.

Marc and Tom,

If you could send me an article and descriptive photos I could add it to our 'Tech Tips'.

Tim

Tim,I hope they do just that. I think a tech tip could be easily formatted for printing in 12PN for those who read 12PN but have no interest in logging in to this web site....and there are many.

I think with some time I could put together some helpful pictures. I have the stuff we used in Wendover except for the Megasquirt , laptop, and knowledge. I have an'89 GMC that is still running so I could show what to look for at the wrecking yard and what to take. I also have a '90 Suburban that I got for a donor. I could finish pulling that harness and pare it down to the essential wires for our use. The parts I need from DYI Autotune will cost about $500. That's going to take me a while to come up with with, but maybe there is a source for detailed pictures of how the GM adapter board and MS goes together. Marc my have some. I still need a cheap laptop that will run Windows. I can tell of what I did to prep the "53 and what we did that night but the computer part is still something I haven't done yet. We'll have to work on it.

Tom,

I labelled all the wires on the harness we used, the only plug that is missing is for the electronic distributor connection ( I extended the tach wire to hook up to your coil, I have the plug here from another harness and if you PM me your mailing address I'll mail it to you.

Suggest you make a list of the wires we actually used - easy to find as they are not coiled up. The rest are for things like lock up convertor and speedo etc..

What needs to be stripped out of the stock harness are alternator, starter, and A/C compressor.

I can take some pictures of the modified GM ECM box and the GM to MS adapter board. There are like 8-10 parts to solder on.

You did a good job with the labels. I have that harness inside in a bag so they wont fade. I labeled the wires on the '90 suburban when I helped the pervious owner pull the big block, but it has been outside and the writing is gone. I'll use your labels and a wiring diagram to sort that out. I think all we used was the injector plugs, temp sensor plug, tach, a 12v switched, 12v from the battery, and two wires to the fuel pump. We didn't do the O2 or distributer. If I need that plug I can get one around here. That would be easy. I think with your pictures and mine we could cover this. I was reading some of your earlier posts that I printed and you pretty well covered it then. I understand more of it now.

I forgot to thank one of my favorite new friends from the Inliners Picnic whose name I shamefully don't remember but whose good deed I'll never forget. He's the guy who stood by with his flashlight until Vic and I got the carb back on the '53. We could probably have done it it the dark, but it would have cut deeply into our beer drinking time! Thank you! Tom

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and thank everyone for participating in this thread and especially at the actual Bonneville Run. WOW it is a great story to read. And someday...long after I get my 250 Six powered 65 Deuce back on the road...I may try this. So for now I will use it for reference and watch as you guys sort out the Megasquirt for me.

Thanks
james

The hardest part of a permanent install is running the fuel lines and modifying the tank. There is a bit of electrical work to alter the length of certain wires and remove circuits like starter. The tach input to the ecm needs a wire added with a ring terminal to connect to the coil - terminal (leave the orginal connector intact). This allows fuel only control which is not so hard to get going. Trying to do both fuel and spark control is tough especially if this is you first try at EFI.

I'm still working on getting a good set of pictures of all that I understand of the "magic" Marc performed at the picnic. I found a laptop on eBay that will fill the need for an MS dedicated computer. (my Mac doesn't run Windows) Shortly I will order the MS kit and get started on that. I hope as I make progress on my injected/turbo 292 project that we as a group can sort it all out and have everything posted here so that everyone interested can use what they need. I especially want for efi-diy to continue leading us through this though I'm sure it's painful. There is so much to read on the MS and DYI Autotune sites that the going is slow for me but I really am beginning to understand. The mechanical/physical part is pretty easy. It's the mystical/electrical stuff that worries me!

About 18 to 24 months ago I wrote an article on efi on this board that explained the basics, well I wonder if our web master could find it and post it again. This was before the board crashed.