Inliners International Forums General Discussion MOPAR Flattie

This past weekend I purchased a 1958 Plymouth Suburban 4 door wagon. This unit is powered by a 230 mopar flathead 6. When I bought it in Omaha, car ran very well. 30 miles down the road, radiator spewing smoke I end up in a gas station with water in the oil. I'm not sniveling, cause the car is extremly cool, but I'd like to know what kind of issues I can expect to see when the engine is out and on the bench.

My second question is about the drive:
The car is equiped wih a 3-speed w/overdrive. I'm thinking about a change to a Chev L6 with a 700R4 behind it. I've been told the 3-speed is a stout unit but I'm a novice when it comes to this ovedrive. Looks like it has got a cable to activate it but I'm clueless as to how to activate it.

The frame is a big heavy completely boxed perimiter frame. Due to the goofy torsion bar/drag link (this forces a center sump oil pan) I don't see anyone that has a stub or any Mustang II type suspention. Any suggestions fella's?

It may be a head gasket, cracked head, or block. Those are good engines but that is a big car. If I was going to use a newer engine I'd use a Dodge slant 6. Keep it Mopar.

Usually the OD cable is pushed in to be in OD and pulled out to keep it out of OD. If all is working well it should shift into OD when ever you let off of the gas above about 24 mph is 2nd and high. If it doesn't there could be a blown fuse, loose wire, bad solenoid, relay, governor, or a real problem with the OD unit it's self. When these work right they are really fun to drive. There are manuals and web sites that can tell you all you need to know to make them work. They are really pretty simple.

Cable seem stuck in the "out" position. I'll be working on it today.

Th cable works a toggle/lever on the side of the OD case. It moves a lock up paul to engage the planetary gears that increase out put shaft speed. The whole thing works all the time it's just not connected until the cable is in. Good luck! By the way, if you are under the car look around on the OD case for numbers that include R10 or R11. R11 is stronger but for your use R10 is fine.

please don't put a cheby motor in it!!!

see http://www.50plymouth.com

As I haven't figured out how to post pictures here, I have added a Photo Bucket link to let you guys see my stuff. Looking at it from the rear, the car leans a bit to the left. My wife has tagged it with the moniker "Eileen". I'm gonna try to get that as a personal plate when I register her. The '58 is the same car that was featured in the movie "Christeen". My car is Eileen, Christeen's big sister........

I like it!

The overdrive is great once you get it dialed in... It has a 33% reduction, so it will enable your flathead six to cruise all day long at 70-75mph.

The cable is a lockout, and does nothing to engauge the overdrive. If the cable is pulled out, it does two things: one, it mechanically disables the sun gear, and two, it disengauges the electrics of the system. The transmission will not freewheel when the cable is pulled out.

When the cable is pushed in, the electrics are free to do their thing, automaically, as you drive the car. Once you reach the cut in speed of about 27 mph, you should hear a click from the relay, and if you let off the gas, the transmission should shift into overdrive. It will stay in overdrive until you are under the cut in speed, or until you kick it down with a full throttle stomp of the gas. The kickdown switch is a two position switch, and is located on the throttle linkage somewhere. The first postion interrupts power to the solenoid, and the second interrupts power to the coil. The coil is cut momentarily to release the torque from the OD, so that the solenoid pawl can release.

Here's a great wiring diagram, that should help find all the wires and electrics (hit reload on your browser if the pic doesn't show):



Also, slide on over the the http://www.p15-d24.com site, and you will find in the downloads section a scanned copy of the Borg/Warner manual for the R10 overdrive. This book has a terrific step by step troubleshooting guide for the electrics and mechanical parts of this transmission.

Let me know if you have any questions, I might be able to help out...

Pete
http://www.50plymouth.com

Pete, thanx, this is exactly why I joined Inliners International. I can't tell you how much this helps me. Engine and tranny are out and this weekend I will see how much it is hurt.

Happy to help...

Pete

OK, here is the bad news.

The head gasket was blown between 5 & 6.

The valve seat under the the #6 exhaust valve is missing from it's normal location, and fractured pieces are beat into the tops of the #1 and #6 pistons.



The #1 exhaust valve is bent.



No ridge in the top of any bore, with no scoreing, so the cylinders at .060 over look fairly good.



The big one is that the head appears cracked and I don't think it can be repaired.

I've found a source for valves and pistons but finding a head may be a challenge. Anyone have a spare laying around?

Hey, how close was that? While you are fixing the other stuff be looking for an aluminum head. I bet someone here has one and needs to be shamed into taking it off their shop wall so it can be where it belongs! Are you saying that there were pieces of # 6 exhaust seat in #1 piston? Who did that? Was the exhaust pipe hooked to the intake in some primitive turbo design? I guess if a hunk of seat held the intake on #6 open then #1 could have sucked smaller pieces in. It is difficult enough to visualize what happens inside an engine when everything works as it should. When stuff happens who knows!

Is your engine an internal bypass? If it is not, I have the original head from my '50 218, which should be the same as the 230.

It it is an internal bypass, then mine won't work.

Pete

How would I know if it is an internal bypass?

If the engine is an external bypass, the thermostat housing connects to the water pump with a short bit of hose, similar to this:


If the engine is an internal bypass, which the later models are (not sure what year they switched) then this connection is in the block and head. There is an extra hole in the front end of the block, between the front passenger side head bolt and the middle head bolt, where coolant can flow into the head/thermostat from the block.

Here's a picture of my old external bypass head, and circled is the spot where the internal bypass hole is located. The head gasket that was under this head was a late model head gasket, and had the hole in it for the bypass. The internal bypass heads have a bump on the end of the head and a hole that corresponds the mark left by the old gasket on my head.



Pete

This is what I have:



The hose from the thermostat housing went to the radiator, and the skinny pipe out of the water pump would go to the heater core.

It's an internal bypass engine... The head I have won't work for you.

The bump on the front edge of the head is the bypass passage between the block and head/thermostat.

Pete

Thank you Pete, I'm learning as I go. And the little detail you just taught me will help me not get the wrong thing.

Hey BotP, block has cracks too. Drat. I'm gonna go see it friday and see how bad it is. I'm really at a loss now....... I got new pistons and rings on the way from Egge, and a new head and a couple valves and afew other goodies coming from Vintage Power Wagons. Anyone had decent sucsess with a welded block or am I chasing my tail? The machinest sez there are 2 or 3 cracks in the head gasket surface with one from the water jacket to an intake seat. When I asked him if that was where some of the escaping coolant could have been going and his response was "sure, it could have been leaving there". I sure don't want to fix everything up if the block is junk. I can't go to my buddy and find another 230 C.I. flathead sitting under the bench like I might find a more popular motor. Any thoughts?

That's bad news. That sounds like more cracks than I'd want to try and fix, but it is amazing what has been done. It sounds like you have committed to a lot of parts so you may as well search out another block. I hope someone here can help. If you have to resort to wrecking yards I can recommend one in Texas. Don't give up!

Take the block to a company that specializes in crack repair and get there opinion I have seen blocks with holes repaired better than new, also have seen minor cracks that were nonrepairable. My advice is get a professional to take a look, it might be cheaper than searching all over the country for another block getting it home and finding it is cracked also. I have seen two blocks in my life that I considered junk because the had froze and broken to the point that the cast iron was deformed but after the repair they were good as new, one was repaired in 1970 and was still in use a couple of years ago when I lost track of it.

I have seen block and head repairs done by using tapered cast threaded plugs. You drill your first hole about a 1/4" past where the crack starts to get into some good metal,then overlap each additional hole about half the width of the installed previous plug.Then to finish, extend your last plug about a 1/4" past where the crack ends. It is detailed in Tex Smith Flathead book, and was common to even repair cracks in the valve seat areas as well.Then either grind the heads of the plugs sticking up smooth, or machine if its in an accessible location such as the deck surface. Afterward, as a precaution, you probably would add some brand of block sealer to further help seal areas you might not have detected. Since your engine was running and you know the internals are good with no turned bearings or broken components, fixing the block and head shouldn't be that costly, and you have nothing to loose if it doesn't cure it 100%, but a little time and patience!

Here are some pics of the tappered plugs on Leos block.

http://www.customdesignperformance.com/leo/block.html

MBHD

MBHD:

Is that technique sometimes referred to as "stiching". Used for cracks in blocks as well as plugs shown in the pictures?

Thanks:
Paul...aka Xerxes

Yes, I believe it is! Seems to be pretty reliable from the experiences i've had with it and other peoples comments as well!

They use that way of repair @ my friends cylinder head shop also,when they are hard pressed to find another head, no castings available.

There are cast iron welding shops,but that is not always a 100% deal, but some places warranty their work..

MBHD

I've read about this procedure and my dad used a like method to fix cracks back in the 50s, but I've never tried it. I have a few Ford V8 flatheads with cracks. I guess they would be good to practice on. I wouldn't want to wreck any salvageable inline blocks!

Tommorow AM I will go check it out. The block was magnifluxed and I'll see if I can treat you guys to some pictures.

Hey, BotP, if you need a Bonneville crewman say the word!

Good luck tomorrow. I hope your block is fixable. I'd like to see pictures.
I'm going to need a lot of help to actually make it to Bonneville. Just understanding the rules and building a car that will pass tech is mind boggling. Doing it on my budget will be a feat on it's own. That's why I'm shooting for 2010 and that might be overly optimistic. But when it's done You are welcome to be on the crew. This is going to be fun. It's not about records or me. It's about a big six and a nuclear war head.

I've been to Bonneville three times now. In 1992 as a rider of a tubo-charged 1954 Pan-bottomed Shovelhead as a rider (extremly cool ). I was fortunate enough to go 173.5 MPH but I was way off the class record. Even so I think that is one of the highlights of my life along with seeing my son born. In 2006 and 2007 I was a crew member on the J&P Cycles Express Motorcycle streamliner.



I'm the fat guy with the big hat on in front. In 2006 we set an AMA national record of 179 and change. It really doesn't sound that fast but it was pretty cool to do it with 79 Cubic Inches (1350CC's). We surely did work out butts off. This year we didn't go due to too many other things going on with the owner. Once you have been a participant at Bonneville, it will draw you back.

I'm kind of disgusted with myself because I let my wife talk me out of what I wanted to do in the first place, which was ditch the flattie and put an L6 Chev with a 700R4 in it. I have couple cool things I got from Tom Lowe to turbocharge a 250 I have in the corner under the bench. This 250 ran before it was pulleed, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. One of the reasons I decided to redo the orignal motor was I kind of got real interested in the 3-speed with overdrive that came in the "longroof". I thought to get this together for reasonably cheep and collect the rest of the bits for the turbo set up over a longer period of time, and enjoy the car as I did. I'm sure if I put the Borg Warner overdrive on E-bay it would fetch a pretty good price. I really like the looks of Eileen and wil not give it up.

Choices, choices.......

Thanks for sharing the pics and background info, its always nice to put a face with a person that you probably wont ever meet,but share a lot of interests with!

I'll probably never get to 179 and I sure won't be trying it with the engine between my legs! Sorry to say this year was my first Speed Week, but I'll never miss it again! It is where I should have been for years. I just want to build something we can have fun with and try to go faster every year. If I start slow there is a better chance for success. I want to involve my sons and friends. It would be good to make new friends too.

If you have to go with a new engine I'd consider a Slant 6. You could probably keep your Borg OD tranny.

Well, scrap that block..... Cracked in 4 headbolt to water jacket places in the center and 1 very nasty crack from one vavle seat toward the cylinder. What makes it so bad is the crack is also visable under the seat in the port. I about fell over when the estamate I got for repair is $ 800.00. I called Vintage Power Wagons (the place I had the head and other goodies on the way from) not only will they accept the un-needed parts back, they have complete recently run low milage (10,000 to 15,000 miles) engines from head to pan for $ 750.00. They also have NOS blocks available for $ 950.00. That sounds like a much more realistic way to go.....

There is both bad and good news here. At least you have choices and you seem to have found a good outfit to deal with. Tell us more about Vintage Power Wagons. Do you think they might have anything for my 413 Dodge/Chrysler Ind.? $750 for a low milage, complete, non cookie cutter engine is a deal!

Vintage Power Wagons is located right here in Iowa and have a huge inventory of Mopar flattie stuff. I don't know if they will have anything for your big beast but they sure may.

http://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/

I went to their web site and asked. we'll see. If anyone has a source for gaskets and such please let me know. Thanks!

Try State Seal in Phoenix. (602) 437-1532

Het BotP, did Vintage Power Wagons have any goodies for you?

X, They didn't answer my inquiry so I can only assume they have nothing and have no idea where I might find anything. I also checked out State seal but didn't ask about custom gaskets yet. Thanks for your help. We'll keep looking. I know there is a gasket set or two out there. I want some sort of back up before I take this thing apart. 33 studs could most likely seal a toilet paper head gasket!