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ey guys, Just wondering if anyone has done this swap. Here's the car: http://www.63ChevyII.comI will eventually be running a 292 if all goes well. I'd like to install an overdrive tranny and like the idea of having a manual transmission. Plus I already have the T5. The T5 I have is a WC unit from a camaro. It has the tailshaft from an s-10 to move the shifter position forward. It is rebuilt and has not been run. I found this kit online: http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?...~Z5Z5Z50000132ADoes anyone know what bellhousing I'd need to use? Do I need to use a hydraulic clutch? I found a Chevy II bellhousing online today and am wondering if I should grab that while I can.
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 12/17/08 01:04 AM.
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Is the T5 a Ford or Chevy bolt pattern?
How many input splines?
62-67 Novas need to use a special bellhousing due to the fork angle. Some have a 4 1/4" center hole 3788383, and some have the correct 4 11/16" center hole 3849309. They turn up on Ebay regularly. If you are trying to use a Ford patterned tranny, you will need to modify the bell, or use an adapter plate.
These bellhousings use the smaller 153 tooth flywheel & 10 1/2" clutch, IIRC...
Have you asked the seller of that kit what you need?
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Last edited by 63ChevyII; 12/17/08 03:31 AM.
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I saved the auction after I won it as a PDF file. I just found it. The auctions says that the tag is Tag # 1352-176. I dont' see this # anywhere on the transmission I got.
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Acording to Lakewood the mustang trans has a register bofe (for the trans front bearing retainer) of 4.914" and the Chevy has a 4.684" bore. So you should be able to tell, what the input is supposed to fit. That and Wilcap has a picture showing the bolt pattern you have and calls it a Chevy.  http://www.wilcap.com/tech.htm#T5sAs for that spline count, that sounds like either the 4 Cyl input, or one of the reinforcemet gear sets. G Force sells those (others too) they look like: http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/t5_popup_gears.aspand You can read about them here: http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.aspBut they're pricey, and you would likely have had to pay a premium for the trans if that's what's in there. You might want to pop the lid to check that. It's actually fairly easy, the hardest part being not loosing the shift detent ball, or the aft countershaft thrust bearing (not all that hard).
My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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That is a Chevy bolt pattern.
Based on the front bearing, it's a WC version.
26 splines would be either a V8 Camaro, or a WC S10. If a V8 Camaro, first gear would be 2.95. Most WC S10 T5's used a Ford bolt pattern.
The tail housing is for an electric speedo only. When looking into the hole, is there a machined surface?
Identification of T5's is by the paper tag on the top plate, or the metal tag bolted to the tranny. Problem is, both can be inacurate, as top plates and tags can be swapped around. You need to learn what the physical differences are between all of them if you ever want to be certain of what you're buying.
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Thanks for the help everyone. I'll post replies to your quesstions/comments later (running a little late), but here is a pic of what's inside the hole. I was told this was setup for mech speedo: 
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It looks to me like the hole is pointing upwards to the tailshaft, not horizontally underneath the tailshaft, is that correct?
While it may have a worm gear on the shaft, the fact that the hole points directly at the tailshaft means you can't get the other gear to mesh with it. Worm gear setups can't have the shafts in the same plane.
Camaros and S10's have the speedo located in different spots. To get the speedo to work correctly when putting an S10 tailhousing on the Camaro tranny, you need to either swap out the tailshaft, or modify the Camaro tailshaft to accept the new gear location. Look at the tech tips section on the left sidebar, or contact Tony P for more info. He has posted some good photos and info on doing this on the HAMB a while back.
I'm guessing that somebody put this all together and realized they screwed up, so rather than swap out the tailhousing, they pawned it off onto you. If you get the correct tailhousing for the mech sender, then you will be fine, assuming the gear was installed correctly onto the tailshaft.
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Acording to Lakewood the mustang trans has a register bofe (for the trans front bearing retainer) of 4.914" and the Chevy has a 4.684" bore. So you should be able to tell, what the input is supposed to fit. That and Wilcap has a picture showing the bolt pattern you have and calls it a Chevy. http://www.wilcap.com/tech.htm#T5sAs for that spline count, that sounds like either the 4 Cyl input, or one of the reinforcemet gear sets. G Force sells those (others too) they look like: http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/t5_popup_gears.aspand You can read about them here: http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.aspBut they're pricey, and you would likely have had to pay a premium for the trans if that's what's in there. You might want to pop the lid to check that. It's actually fairly easy, the hardest part being not loosing the shift detent ball, or the aft countershaft thrust bearing (not all that hard). Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at it. That is a Chevy bolt pattern.
Based on the front bearing, it's a WC version.
26 splines would be either a V8 Camaro, or a WC S10. If a V8 Camaro, first gear would be 2.95. Most WC S10 T5's used a Ford bolt pattern.
The tail housing is for an electric speedo only. When looking into the hole, is there a machined surface?
Identification of T5's is by the paper tag on the top plate, or the metal tag bolted to the tranny. Problem is, both can be inacurate, as top plates and tags can be swapped around. You need to learn what the physical differences are between all of them if you ever want to be certain of what you're buying. I was told that it is out of an 88 camaro and is of the WC variety. The paper tag was painted over. It is there, but unreadable. I will have to take a look at the alignment of the gear. I think you are correct though. Here is a comparison of the pics from the tech post and a picture that I took last night. The speedo housing does appear to be pointed upwards, although this could be b/c of the angle.  I drew the green line as a point of reference for where the speedo housings are located on the tailshaft. The pics are at different angles, but if you bring that into consideration, it appears that they are at the same spot or extremely close (or maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part). There are also some obvious differences between the tailshafts. Gearhead, do you have Tony P's screen name on the HAMB?
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I have done the Camaro/S10 swap thingy before. You have an electric only tailhousing. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280529&highlight=truckedupNot saying everything in that post is right, but what I'm refering to is in this post. Cheap spraybomb silver will come right off with just a little laquer thinner. Shouldn't hurt the tag, if its in good shape to begin with. It's a safe bet that it would tell you a late 80's or early 90's S10 anyway, as it is easier to swap the entire top plate assembly, than to swap around just the shifter rod.
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I skimmed over the info on the HAMB thread. I may have missed it, but how do you tell an electronic tailhousing from a mechanical one?
EDIT: it's b/c the hole is pointed directly at the gear, correct?
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 12/17/08 04:52 PM.
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As I said before, because the mechanical gears are a worm style, the shaft centerlines need to be in different planes.
Take a look at any gear driven speedo setup, maual or automatic, and you will see that the driven gear is below or above the worm gear.
Tha tailhousing in the righthand picture is the one you want.
Another option would be to change the worm gear to the reluctor wheel (I think thats the right term) and spend $319 on a converter box from Abott X.
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Here's some info from the seller: Just got home and read your emails.... You do have a WC Chevy Camaro case (you can tell by front bearing retainer and bolt pattern) Also, just to clarify something I saw...All Camaro T5's (WC or NWC) had a mechanical driven speedometer. It was the World Class S10 T5's that had an electric speedo. I will get with the builder in the morning and we'll see what he can do to get you on the road. gearhead, thanks for the help and bearing with me. I understand your point regarding the worm gears alignment issue.  My initial confusion was due to what I was told a couple of years ago regarding how to tell the difference between a tranny that used a mechanical speedo vs an electric one. I was told, '' if it has a plug on the side of it, its electric. If it has a speedo bullet or a hole with gears inside it, it's mechanical'' When the transmission showed up, I saw the gears in the hole and figured it was mechanical.
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 12/17/08 11:06 PM.
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''if it has a plug on the side of it, its electric. If it has a speedo bullet or a hole with gears inside it, it's mechanical''
Thats right, IF it had the sender installed...
Well, hopefully he will send you the right tailhousing...
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Gearhead, Here is a reply from the seller: I gave all the info to the builder/owner yesterday. He looked it over and came to the following conclusion:
All of the conversions he'd done in the past were with NWC Camaro main cases or NWC Ford main cases using a NWC S-10 mid shift tail housing. The speedometer gear and the hole always lined up perfectly.
When you purchased the WC Camaro Transmission, he used a WC S10 tail housing. The speedometer drive gear and the hole lined up perfectly as well. It was still a splined gear on the output shaft so he thought you chould just use your current speedo setup. From the information you provided, it appears that you must use a NWC tail housing and relocate the speedo gear and epoxy/shim it in place so it will line up correctly.
Having said that...I'm not sure what you want to do. I know you are in a time crunch. If you would like us to have it shipped back here, we can install a NWC tail housing with the proper speedo setup. We will pay shipping both ways.
Or, we can send you a NWC tail housing setup. I'm not sure if you are able to change it or if you will have to get someone else to. We'd like to work something out or make it right. I'm thinking that I'm going to have them take care of it for me. What are your thoughts? Should I try this myself?
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Keep in mind that it isn't simply a matter of using a NWC S10 tailhousing, as they were made with both mech and electrical setups. It HAS TO BE a NWC with mech sender, period.
Hopefully they are aware of the two different oil funnel types that were used, and that they use the correct one based on the tailhousing, not the gear set.
I would send it back. Make sure you CYA finacially on it, though.
Last edited by gearhead; 12/22/08 04:12 PM.
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One more thing, The gear on the tailshaft is in the correct location. All S10 T5's use the same location, which is about 7" from the end of the tail housing. My purpose in showing you the "modified" location was so you would be aware of what needs to be done should it still have the Camaro tailshaft. Since it doesn't, don't worry about it.
All he needs to do is swap out the housing, and giving you the right slug/gear that goes in the hole would be nice too.
One other thing to keep in mind is the clip that holds the gear to the shaft.
All WC S10 T5's are electric senders.
You can not swap NWC and WC tailshafts.
What I'm getting at is that there is a small blind hole in the shaft which is used to locate the gear clip, and there is also a blind hole to locate the positive stop steel ball on the reluctor tailshafts. These holes are different sizes. If you use the gear clip on a tailshaft that was meant for the reluctor (which is what you have going on), the fit will be sloppy and may cause erratic needle bounce because thegear can move back and forth on the shaft because of the larger hole.
Drilling a smaller hole in the shaft for the clip would be the solution.
If this is at all confusing, PLEASE let me know, and I will call you. It is alot easier to discuss certain things over the phone than through a forum...
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Keep in mind that it isn't simply a matter of using a NWC S10 tailhousing, as they were made with both mech and electrical setups. It HAS TO BE a NWC with mech sender, period.
Hopefully they are aware of the two different oil funnel types that were used, and that they use the correct one based on the tailhousing, not the gear set.
I would send it back. Make sure you CYA finacially on it, though.
One more thing, The gear on the tailshaft is in the correct location. All S10 T5's use the same location, which is about 7" from the end of the tail housing. My purpose in showing you the "modified" location was so you would be aware of what needs to be done should it still have the Camaro tailshaft. Since it doesn't, don't worry about it.
All he needs to do is swap out the housing, and giving you the right slug/gear that goes in the hole would be nice too.
One other thing to keep in mind is the clip that holds the gear to the shaft.
All WC S10 T5's are electric senders.
You can not swap NWC and WC tailshafts.
What I'm getting at is that there is a small blind hole in the shaft which is used to locate the gear clip, and there is also a blind hole to locate the positive stop steel ball on the reluctor tailshafts. These holes are different sizes. If you use the gear clip on a tailshaft that was meant for the reluctor (which is what you have going on), the fit will be sloppy and may cause erratic needle bounce because thegear can move back and forth on the shaft because of the larger hole.
Drilling a smaller hole in the shaft for the clip would be the solution.
If this is at all confusing, PLEASE let me know, and I will call you. It is alot easier to discuss certain things over the phone than through a forum... So, lets see if I understand correctly. I took a look at the tech tips and your post. From what I gather, I would need to swap out the tailshaft housing with one from a NWC S-10 that is setup for a mechanical sender. I would also need to modify the placement of the speedo gear. I think I may try to do this myself. As far as CMA financially, I am worried. Sunday, the guy told me that he'd send me info so I could ship the transmission to him free of charge. I'm made several phone calls, left messages and sent emails. Still nothing. I am thinking that I should just tell him to send me the the tailshaft/tailshaft housing(NWC S-10, mech) and see if he'll throw in the bellhousing/clutch setup I plan on using, since he'll be saving a ton on shipping. Gearhead - If I have this wrong still/sound confused, let me know and I will call you. Let me know a good time/day. From what I am told, I think I am going to try and use the bellhousing and hydraulic clutch setup from a camaro. There is a guy on another website that used this setup in this 67 Chevy II. I will have to modify a crossmember, but I hope that I'll be able to do this in my class ('beginning street rod building').    
Last edited by 63ChevyII; 12/24/08 09:55 PM.
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Pretty tidy looking setup to shoot for. I have a hydraulic slave on the Mustang T5 in my A, but it's aftermarket so it's got a bracket where it pushes from the gearbox side.
My, what a steep learning curve. Erik II#5155
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The guy may just be busy or away for the holidays... Just swap the tailhousing, and just checkout the way the gear is mounted. if it looks like it can get loose and move on the shaft due to slop, then just drill a smaller hole in the shaft for the clip. Be aware the shaft is case hardened, so you need a good drill bit, or tickle the surface where you're going to put the hole with a grinder first. I'm sure you can handle it. As for the bellhousing, the right one to use is on ebay right now, but you will need to have the center hole punched out to the right size. Cheaper to do than a hydraulic setup, and no goofy angled mounting or shifter issues to deal with. But it's up to you... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-ALU...sQ5fAccessories
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I heard back from the tranny guy this morning. Last night I sent him an email asking him to send me the tailhousing and a free bellhousing and his 'response' was finally sending me the shipping tag. He didn't say anything about my email. I am a little worried if I send the transmission to him I'll never hear from him or see the transmission again. Can you explain to me the 'goofy angled mounting or shifter issues?' I think I remember reading that the camaro bell is rotated 17* towards the driver. What sort of problems will this give me? I am back and forth on whether to use a mechanical or hydraulic setup. I think that the costs will be similar. Oh so here are some parts for a hydraulic setup: hydraulic camaro bellhousing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T5-Hydrau...sQ5fAccessorieshttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-CHEVY-...sQ5fAccessoriesmaster/slave: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-92-Cam...sQ5fAccessoriesAnd, just the clutch assembly from Chevy 2 (in case I can't find one used): http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?...~Z5Z5Z50000132Aso using these parts, somewhere in the neighbor hood of $300 ($80 pedals, $$75-100 bellhousing, $100 hydraulic stuff). If I go with mechanical: Chevy II Bellhousing ($75 - $100) Auto - Manual kit (http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dyndetail~Z5Z5Z50000132a~Z5Z5Z599699~P299.95~~~~S2JB14OJ6U169235103364~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z50000132A) I probably could find these parts used, but I am in a position where I can really spend a lot of time trying to piece stuff together. $400 total
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With the Camaro bellhousing, the tranny is tiped 17 degrees. This means you need to use the Camaro mount and shifter. You'll need to modify the car as the other guy did to make it all work. That also means mounting a cylinder on the firewall to hook up to the clutch pedal arm.
If you use the correct bellhousing and linkage, the only thing that needs modifying might be the location of rear mount, which needs to be done either way. Mechanical setups last practically forever, when compared to hydraulic setups. Both use the smaller 153 tooth flywheel.
the time it will take to make the $300 option work is, in my opinion, worth more than $100, but it's up to you. Either way can be made to work.
Perhaps putting an add on craigslist, or adds on some of the nova specific sites will turn up something?? have you talked to Twisted6??
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