Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected Turbo Chevy II Project

First, an introduction:

Some of you out there might actually know me. I've been involved in land speed racing all my life. I've been running vintage four banger Ford stuff out at the lakes for the past 10 years with my dad and brother. We hold a bunch of V4 and V4F records that were set in either our '28 roadster or Roy Creel's belly tank lakester. I guess you could technically say that we run the world's fastest four cylinder flathead Ford.

Now for some background:

I recently acquired a '29 Tudor Sedan. I'd been wanting a Tudor for a long time and now I finally have one. Was going to run a Hemi but the old man talked me out of it because they're just too damned expensive these days. An SBC is a little too "plane jane" for me so I thought about a banger motor. Unfortunately I've blown up way too many bangers to know that I don't really want one in a street car. So how about a four banger Chevy?

After doing some research I discovered the Chevy II 153 cid motor. After doing some more research I discovered the Mercruiser 3.0L motor which is the 181 cid version of the Chevy II. Oh neat I think, now I've got my banger motor. But this banger has to go and it has to go good. For the past few years I've been playing with watercooled VW's (another inliner if you will) and have actually built a few turbo motors and learned to love the endless fun that is forced induction.

So now I have my plan: a turbo Mercruiser 3.0L for my Tudor Sedan. After months of research and thought and planning this is what I have so far:

-Use stock block and crank
-Run some off the shelf forged SBC pistons
-Run some off the shelf 6" I-beam rods
-Use stock 8 port head with mild porting OR...
-Run Joe Fontana's midget motor head
-Run Megasquirt 2 engine management
-Run distributorless waste spark ignition

All of this will be mated to a Richmond 5 speed and a Ford 8" rear end with a 3.00:1 r&p. I plan on fabbing up my own intake and exhaust manifolds and will build all the other essential stuff as well.

Now my biggest question is which turbo should I use? The Mercruiser is unique in that it's such a big four banger (181 cid). My goal is a conservative 300-350 streetable whp. I want something that will build boost fairly quickly and not just be all top end. I'm building a street car here, not another Bonneville racer.

My research has shown that a T3/T4 hybrid turbo should be a good match for this setup. This should start building boost before 3000 rpm, be at full boost by 4000 rpm, and easily make 300+ hp. Here is the turbo I had in mind: T3/T4

My only concern is that the T3 exhaust turbine is too small for a 181 cid motor. Again, I'm building a street car and I want something that will build boost quickly but I don't want the exhaust side to be overly restrictive.

Obviously the next step up would be a full on T4 but now my concern is that the exhaust housing is too big and won't give me the response I'm looking for. Unfortunately I'm on a very tight budget and I don't have the ability to try multiple turbos. This is going to kind of be a one shot deal for me.

On a side note, I did find a really neat new turbo from Precision. They call it the HP6262S (62mm compressor inducer and 62mm turbine exducer) and it has a v-band inlet and outlet on the turbine (I love v-bands). It's probably a $1200 turbo but it's super nice. The only thing I do not like about Precision is that they will not disclose their compressor maps. Instead they want you to tell their techs what it is you want to do and they pick the turbo for you. I don't know if I like that idea.

Anyways, please share with me some insight on turbo selection. I had thought for a long time the T3/T4 was the way to go. Maybe it is... maybe it isn't. Let me know.

Thanks,

Nathan Stewart

Welcome Beef stew,


A T3 housing can support 600+ HP.
I have a Turbonetics 62-1 T3/T4 Stage 5 turbine section Hybrid,there techs tell me it can support 625 HP.

So, w/that being said,a T3/T4 hybrid will work for you of only wanting 350 HP max.

Guys on Syclones & Typhoons 4.3 262 CI V-6 are running hybrids,& straight T3 turbos also & have made 700+ HP w/stock exhaust manifolds,for a street tune ,using pump gas.

Master Power turbos seems to be pretty good ,made in Brazil & are not too much $$$$.

I think they also have V-band flanges (on there turbos) if you need/want that.

The Brazillian dollar is not as good as our dollar,(I know,, hard to believe) I think for some Master Power turbo size you are looking for is about $650-$850 Range? Don't quote me though,have not looked @ them in a while.

MBHD

The T3 series will build more than enough boost if you only want 300 ish HP.

There are other turbine A/Rs available, the one you list from VS comes with either a .48 or a .63.

Which are you basing your spoolup figures on?

I have a divided T3 housing that I have plans to run a diverter valve in to block half the housing at low speed. With the radius, w/ half the area equals half the AR, so 1.08 becomes 0.54. That assumes an exectly equal division, but should be very close.

I don't have a P/N or the aplication it came from (Flebay purcahse, I was building my own hybrid).

Sounds great, please keep us posted. I've been accumulating 153 and 181 speed parts for several years for a drag project in a 62 Chevy II sedan. I have several different homeade intakes and headers for the 181, but haven't tried any yet. I hope to go the turbo route later, so please let us know your progress.

Dave

What is your 62-1 on and how much boost and power are you making? Spool characteristics?

Now are the guys with the turbo V6's running two turbos or just a single?

Thanks,

Nate

The T04 compressor will definitely do more than I'll ever really need. Again, my concern is the T3 exhaust housing being too small and restrictive. I was going to go with the .63 a/r 60 trim T3/T4 I linked to.

I based my spool up figures on two things: experience and plotting everything out on the compressor map. I found the engine flow rates for certain boost levels at certain engine rpms and I plotted it out. It should make 15 psi quickly and easily and be at its max efficiency level the whole time. As for my experience, I used a T3/T4 on a 2.0L VW engine with great results. IMO the combination was perfect for a 2.0L which concerns me because I want to use almost the same turbo on a motor that's 50% larger.

Nate

[quote=Beef StewWhat is your 62-1 on and how much boost and power are you making? Spool characteristics?

Now are the guys with the turbo V6's running two turbos or just a single?

Thanks,

Nate [/quote]

Nate,
I have not used my 62-1 yet. I t will be ging on my 250 CI L6.
The turbo was originally bought for my Syclone pickup but did not use it.
I upgraded the Syclone stock style turbo as to keep it looking "STOCK"
Here is the link of that turbo.
You can see a side by side comparision,stock vs,modified.
http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53545

I have two turbine housings,a .63, & also a .84 IIRC.
I am pretty sure it will spool really fast.

One thing though, I am thinking for me to make full boost on a launch on the .63 housing,I am thinking it will need a stall of 2800 RPM,,& for the .84 housing,I am leaning torwards 3400 RPM,one day I will find out,when my kids get older.

Now,, I am possibly going to loose my job ,economy stinks,not enough people wanting to spend money everywhere,people & business's losing jobs & closing business's.

Tlowe has a Full T4 62-1 ,you can ask him how his spools.

Guys w/there Syclones & Typhoons,for the most part are using a single turbo set-up.
There are guys that have twin turbocharged & are making anywhere's from 1000 HP to 1600 HP range approx.

This Typhoon made 1200 HP twin turbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ej6SPKk3w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyhEv3kMMl0&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpkS-jNTh94

Here is the worlds fastest Syclone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl0du9qxQFg


MBHD

beef stew,
cool project! i have 2 used 181 (3.0L) from forklifts. they are great motors. you are correct, they have a SBC bore and bolt pattern for bellhousing. they also use a 1 piece rear seal in later motors. i also have 2 new crate engines.

i have a few questions for you.
what rpm range do you plan to run?
what rpm do you want full boost?
cam specs?

the stick shift will hurt the turbo/boost on shifts. i am sure you know that allready. i also think a t3 exh housing will support the 181 motor.

i run the 62-1 on a 292 for street use. it will boost fast and i have had to increase the exhaust housing to slow down/control boost better.
have you thought about using a turbo from a buick GN. 3.8L is awlfully close to the size you need. they are cheap to try also.

have you allready picked up a fontana head?

tom

Thank you.

your very welcome, just piping in, as i have been gone for a few days.

mr stew,
i also think you will want full boost before 4K rpm. mine starts building boost visably around 2200 rpm. 8-10 psi @ 3200 and max's at 11-12 now. i am not quite sure of the rpm range for the 181 even with a bigger cam. do they have harmonic problems like a big stroked 6 does. that may also limit your rpm's it does for me. tom

Tom,

Redline will be 6000-6500 rpm but will most likely never go beyond 5000 rpm. I'd like full boost by 3000-3500 rpm. Cam will either be an off the shelf mild performance piece or a custom "turbo" grind. Don't have the exact specs picked yet but I'm looking into it.

The Fontana head is merely an idea at this point. I like the fact that the intake ports are canted up above the exhaust ports. Seems like this would offer better manifold sealing for both the intake an exhaust. Have you found this to be an issue at all on a stock type head? Or am I worrying about something that doesn't need to be worried about? One measely bolt every few inches just doesn't seem sufficient to me. Anyways, I know Joe and hopefully I'll be able to pick up a used head from him. Or maybe I'll stick with a stocker...

Nate

Arias used to make aftermaket aluminum cylinder heads for that engine along w/an aluminum block.

Might be able to find used race engines lying around?


MBHD

That's a pretty cool turbo setup. Very stealthy.

Thanks,

I always try for a street sleeper look.
With my Camaro,that will be a different story,,sigh someday. ;-)
MBHD

Okay my next big question: to intercooler or not to intercooler?

Remember, this is going in a "hot rod" ('29 Tudor Sedan). I will not run an air-to-air i/c on this car. I am considering a PWR barrel water-to-air i/c that'll mount ahead of the engine and behind the radiator. A small heat exchanger should fit nicely ahead of the radiator which will be covered by a '32 grille shell.

If I've looked at the compressor map for my desired turbo correctly, I should be operating at max output efficiency at full boost (15 psi). Do I really need to go with an intecooler at all? I really like the idea of running an i/c and I think it'll be beneficial on warm/hot days but it does add significant cost to my build.

So what do you guys think?

I like to run an intercooler plus a methanol injection set-up.

Instead of an intercooler, you can run a methanol injection as a chemical intercooler.
Here are a few Co's in no particular order.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/
http://alkycontrol.com/
http://www.coolingmist.com/
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html

MBHD

Ha it's interesting that you mention water methanol injection. Unfortunately I'm all too familiar with water meth. I was actually the head tech at Snow Performance for two years while I was living in Colorado. I know that good stuff that can come from water meth but I've seen the bad stuff as well.

Unfortunately there are a few fundamental problems with water meth injection. One, with the additional air charge cooling and effective octane increase I'll be able to run a more aggressive tune (more boost and more timing) while still using pump gas. One of the biggest problems with these systems is reliability. They all use the same crappy Shurflo pump which was never designed to be used with alcohol. The progressive electronics control leave a lot to be desired. Most have major hysteresis and are not accurate at all. If you do run an aggressive tune then you'll have to run some kind of fail safe which adds even more cost to the system. You're looking at over $1000 to run a full system with good electronics, a decent sized reservoir, and a fail safe.

I'd rather spend that $1000 towards an intercooler which won't ever fail and doesn't require a fail safe.

Aquamist makes there own pumps & they are not Sureflow.

I have a teflon seal (for my pump)that Richard @ Aquamist sent me stateing I can use almost any chemical through there pumps w/this seal.


Running the best intercooler is not going to allow you to turn up the boost pressure & advance your timing on pump gas.

Unless you are running an air to water w/an ice chest full of ice & water or other form of cooling.


MBHD

You're partially correct. Aquamist also use Shurflo pumps. Still don't believe me? Look at all of their HFS system. Yup, every single one uses a Shurflo pump.

The proprietary Aquamist pump were the absolute WORST pumps to use with methanol. They use a very poor metal-on-metal design and the reduced lubricity of the methanol means an increase in internal friction. In a matter of minutes these pump will seize when used with methanol. I'm glad to hear that Richard finally figured this out by why use something that isn't methanol resistant like Teflon? He should be using EPDM.

Running the best intercooler possible will in fact allow me to run more boost and timing. A cooler denser air charge is less prone to pre-ignition and detonation. Thus the detonation threshold is increaed allowing for more ignition advance and/or more boost. And regular old intercooler don't really fail either.

You CANNOT run more boost or timing with water/methanol injection unless you run some kind of fail safe. That, or you grenade your motor when the pump dies or a fitting fails or the electronics stop working. Don't get me wrong. I'm a faithfull believer of what water/methanol can do WHEN IT WORKS. Unfortunately there is too much risk associated with these types of systems and I don't feel like paying out the wazoo for a fully reliable kit and fail safe.

Like I said, I used to work for a water/methanol injection manufacturer. I've tested EVERY water/methanol kit on the market. Seriously, I have. When you work behind the scenes you see the ugly side of how things really are. It's unfortunate but true.

Anyways, I'm not trying to sway you or anyone else one way or another. I'm looking for insight on whether or not I'll need conventional intercooling with my setup.

Maybe I'll start another thread.

beef,
have you thought about running a intercooler with the ability to chill the cooler with CO2 or nitrogen? http://www.speedmaxperformance.com/ these guys make them and i am a dealer. they also come from brazil. the cooler has cooling lines made right into the cooler. i know of no one else that makes them. tom

Tom, I've seen the S-Max stuff before. I work with a guy who used to be part of their west coast operation. I'm not real big on expendables but it's worth looking into.

BTW, do you have any insight on intake/exhaust manifold sealing for turbo motors? I'm a bit leary of only having 6 studs to hold down both manifolds. This is what has lead me to the Fontana midget motor head. The intake is on a different plane than the exhaust so each has their own sealing surface area. Have you had any issues with your stock head/manifold configuration?

Nate

i have had a issue sealing the intake. i do not recomend the felpro race gaskets made for these motors. it has no metal binder to give it strength. i now use a stock metal felpro int/exh gasket. the stock bolts hold fine under boost. tom

Aquamist just recently started to use sureflow pumps & only on certain systems.

I have been using methanol in my Aquamist system (1S) for over 5 years & no problems. With the old original seal in the pump.

I am not sure what the seal was made out of Richard sent me, I just thought it was Teflon.

It is proven time & time again on dynos that running methanol & an intercooler will make more power & less prone to detonation than running the best air to air intercooler.

I do run more boost & more timing on my Syclone & many many other SY/Ty owners w/no fail safe measures do also.
But with my Syclone, I do not use it as a replacement of my fuel injection system.

I probably can understand your piont of view coming from Snow ,as & have never heard anyone recommending there systems,,,,,problems w/there components? Don't know. Maybe you do?

So if you were to run a methanol system, w/out an unbiased opinion,,what what you recommend using, since you tried them all.? Co. name?

MBHD