Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines Opinions wanted...

Hey all,

I'm in a constant flux about the future engine for my '67 Chevy II. After watching a few videos and doing some math, I'm kind of on fence about whether or not an inline is the way to go.

Please, help set me straight!

My '67 Chevy II *should* weigh about 3000 when all is said and done. With a projected 220 hp from my build, coupled with a three speed standard and around 3.73 gears (maybe lower, maybe higher), be enough to satisfy my speed bug?

I have a buddy with an '05 Mustang with a 4.6. Needless to say, he talks big. I'd enjoy giving him a run, but in all reality, know that I prolly can't pull him.

I dunno. My mind wanders, and I just need some reassurance that my 250 on the stand down stairs will have enough to scoot my II around. I'd like it to be a semi-daily driver and cruiser, but stop light matches are definitely in it's future.

Any opinions, words of wisdom, past experiences from people driving hopped up sixes around? Larry? CNC? NeoNova? Tlowe?

...anyone?

thanks in advance!
-Sam.

(p.s. I know this post is rambling and needy seeming. I apologize, and hope you don't think less of me as a fellow inliner. :))

You want an opinion. Sounds to me like your buddy with the stang, has put a bur under your saddle. I'll tell you who's going to win. He who makes the most $$$$, with the fewest dependencies.

You've got one shot and only one shot. Set the bar high enough that be won't compete, and sneak up on him doing it. Something like a turbo 292. I'm sure there would be plenty of help here. Then listen to him cry foul because your turbo charged.

Larry

Be smart!
At best your buddies stock 4.6 Mustang probably can do a 0-60 in about 6 seconds. If you listen to a few guys on this board that run 250's with some nice mods, you'll be able to beat that easy.
If you want torque and stoplight acceleration, a 292 turbo or a 292 with head work and dual quads will smoke him good.

Your Chevy II has a nice frame and weight ratio so any inline with over 250 HP should do the trick!

RapRap
1940 ChoppedChevyCoupe

PS-My coupe has a 292 bored .040, 270 cam, ported/polished, 3x2's, Langdon Headers and a T-5 and I guarentee I'll smoke your buddy for the 1/8 all day long!

Its easy to spend other peoples money when it comes to giving advice or opinions, but I think everyone else has pretty much hit it right on the head. Go bigger inches like a 292, your buddy will never know the difference by looking at it. If your budget allows, then throw on a turbo or a 75-100 HP shot of nitrous just to make sure you go beyond your original goal. The head work is a definite must....

my car is 700 lbs heavier than yours and i know it would beat the mustang.

a 250 built correct with a big cam and good head work would certainly do the job too. the only problem with that is drivabilty.

take a 250 or 292 and moderately build it add nitrous and it would also do it and be drivable.

add a turbo to the 250 or 292, also moderately built and it would do the job and be drivable.

keep in mind V8's are cheaper and easier but to me it ain't funner.

Be careful - build it for you and not him. Long after you have dusted his butt you will still have to like what you put together. My 235 probably wont beat a Yugo. But I don't care. I like it.

How do you feel about electronics?

Thank you all for your input, I guess I just get caught up in the cubic inch and bent 8 wars.

I'd rather keep this naturally aspirated, due to budget and me not being familiar with it, along with keepin' it carbed for the same reasons. I'm comfortable with it, and it works for me.

If I do it right, I should be able to get a steeper first gear for my three speed, with the right gears, along with doing some head work and bumping the compression higher on the engine...hmm...

I know a 250 is easier to put into the 2nd gen Chevy II than a 292, plus be a little bit easier on fuel, so, for the time being, I'll stick with the small inches.

And, I know my car will receive more attention than his, but thats not really the contest - not that it is a contest. I just know that as soon as I hit the road with it, he'll come out with "mine is faster". But thats what happens when you have deep pockets and know jack-diddly about cars...

Keep it coming all, I'd like to hear your opinions and ideas for this. I've been yearning to do an inline, and I just don't want to be disappointed with how it moves.

Thanks!

-Sam.

I think a T5/5 speed conversion would be beneficial....

Sam................

As a matter of fact, his Mustang probably is going to be faster than your Nova. So what? It's also 37 years newer than your Nova and has a lot more advanced technology in it. One of the guys up in Washington state that I've known for a few years has a '32 Chevy coupe (that weighs less than your Nova) with 250 and 200R4 trans in it. The engine has 2 Edelbrock 4-bbl carbs on it, a race cam and all the stuff to go with it and puts out 250 horses on the dyno, and it runs in the mid-13 second range at the strip. Your buddy's Mustang would maybe run about that well with NO modifications. But your Nova is going to be a lot cooler because it's a lot more personal and hand built. And I agree with CNC-Dude, it'll be a lot more fun to drive with a 5-speed, or even a 4-speed trans in it. The extra gears really do make a BIG difference in driveability, and it would probably be less hassle than modifying your 3-speed, plus give you better overall results. And as you said, anybody with enough money can buy a pretty fast car off a showroom floor, but it takes some talent and ability and elbow grease to build one, not to mention perseverance. So hang in there, and try not to let your buddy get under your skin too much when he brags about his store-bought ponycar. And I'm saying this as a Mustang owner, actually a multiple Mustang owner. Besides my Nova, I have a '68 Fastback and an '06 Coupe with a Pony package, and my '06 with a 4.0 V6 is probably going to be faster than my '64 Nova when I get the Nova finished, and I don't give a damn. Being the fastest guy on the block isn't always the important thing. The Nova is going to be a lot more unique, and I'll always be proud to drive it and show it to people because it's going to have a lot of my time, ideas, effort, sweat, and blood (from skinned knuckles) in it.

I concur with '64Nova...

The car hobby is all about doing it yourself. The auto manufacturers will sell a fast car to anyone with money; no talent test required. Just ask what parts of the car your buddy designed or rebuilt himself. A disparaging "Oh... so it's factory." ending with an amused chuckle seems to be the best way to handle the non-participants.

The person with the courage and determination who tries something different by his or herself always warrants more respect, even if the results aren't as good as our imaginations suggest, than the person who brags about factory offerings or pays someone else to make modifications. One can only laugh at people who call themselves "hot rodders" but buy crate engines, for example.

Take pride in your busted knuckles and mechanical daring.

My guess is your Chevy II would be 1.5 to 2.0 seconds slower than the Mustang. I am thinking the Mustang should run high 13s or very low 14s and your car likely will run 15s to 16s.For a comparison the 66 I had ran 14:30s and likely would have been a couple of tenths quicker with tuning at close to sea level. It was a normally aspirated 292 with ~ 250-275 hp, Saginaw 4 speed, 4:10 gears and drag radials.

If you can afford and want to do it, an OD 5 speed and 4:10 gears would be a help in the quarter and still be a great street car. You will need a posi or locking rear and if you get it to hook-up, new rear axle shafts.

I will guarantee you will get alot more looks and positive comments with the 250 than a sbc or the Mustang and a quick six definitely messes up people's minds. Just remember to have fun with it.

Sam,
Maybe it is possible if you don't break the trans, here are some ideas and calculations based on:
1. You insist on not using a 292
2. You insist on a carburetor
3. You use the nova 3spd and it holds together, which might in itself rule out the 292

I calculated a modified version of the 6cyl 250 built in June 05 Hot Rod with the new 12-port alum street head 4v intake and 600 Holley to match it, along with 10.5cr, 1-5/8 headers, and a Crane 238-248-108 cam straight up at 108i 108e centers.
Torque 314 at 4500
Power 327 at 5800
From the dyno tests it is a very nice cylinder head, but pricey, and the Mustang guy might even say that is not fair.
With cold air induction, a 3.73, dual 2.5" magnaflow muffs, and whatever chassis mods magically happen to make it hook up, the car at 3100 lb w/driver calculates down the track to
1.78 60ft [that's the hard part.....]
8.43 at 80.5
13.26 at 102.4
That is way faster than the actual timeslip turned in by me in our '00 Mustang auto at 14.58 and 97mph. I suppose the '05s are faster, then again there's magazine e.t.'s and real e.t.'s too.

For a step down I computed a lump port head and Clifford 4v intake, no other changes, computed to
Torque 275 at 4400
Power 290 at 5900
This calculated the car down the track at
1.89
8.81 at 77.1
13.88 at 97.2
That would give a good run to most or all stick shift 4.6 Mustangs in the real world. Stock, that is.

Now, these calculations assume the car hooks up and doesn't break, and that the engine is in perfect tune, jets, timing, etc. And of course it is just a computer but matches reality in many examples.

So sure you could do it with a 250cid but it would take careful engine work, an expensive head (especially the aluminum version), and careful chassis prep.

I'd suggest, sneak up on it!
Go to the strip as-is, get some time slips, then get the headers, 4v intake and carb you'd use later on then go back. Then go thru the engine and add the lump port head and a mild cam. Then the new rear and axles before they break. And maybe a 5spd trans so that doesn't break either. Then the monster cam. Then the cold air induction. etc - take it to the strip at each step, that is a whole lot of fun. By the end you won't care about the boring late model Mustangs anyway but you might even be beating them.

Thanks guys, I really needed that, haha. It's just, I know it'll come up. And it's not that I'm worried about beating him, etc, I just want to be satisfied with how my car gets around.

I like being different - I wouldn't build old cars and drive them every day if I didn't. With a six, I know it'll grab looks, and according to these posts, it'll eat up some pavement too.

Unfortunately, we don't have a track around. The closest we have is an 1/8th mile ice drag every winter. Which I may go to, and run in the tuner class for 4's and 6's.

Thanks again all, I really appreciate it. I've been saving money, and am getting ready to send the block off to the machinist, so before I did that, I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be disappointed with the results.

By all means, keep the replies coming, but I'm convinced.

-Sam.

Sam, Heres a link to 65Novas web page. He's fixing to put a 292 in his 65. It's also a d*mn nice looking Nova.

After reading TLowes post I'm leaning towards a 250 and Nitrous. If you've read any of the post from our friends in south America, you know the bottom end on the 250 is stout enough.

http://www.63ChevyII.com/the_build/2008/may_june.htm

Larry

Larry, thanks for the link. That is a really clean car, wow!

A 292 would be great in the car, especially with the low end grunt. But the mods to make it fit, with hood clearance, side moutn, and fuel pump...etc. I'm just not sure it'd be worth it at this point in time.

And yeah, those Brazillian fellows really give our sixes a working over, haha!

After reading the posts from you all, and watching more of Twisted 6's drag videos, I'm feeling better about the 250.

I'll have to start small, but I hope to be able to do everything right, and have a stout build up. Of course I'll keep you all posted as progress comes along, but once again, thank you all!

-Sam.

This is all you need. A 250 is fine.
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=46408#Post46408
530 hp@5300 and 588 lbs@4000rpms at the flywheel, with 21psi boost and E85


MBHD

Thanks for posting the link to my website Larry.

I'm not sure if I'd be going the same route I'm headed on if I were starting over now. I'd probably be taking a long look at this:
https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbth...3051c#Post48429

I had the 292 left over from another project. Somebody bought the truck from me and had no interest in the engine, which has less than 100 miles on it since it was rebuilt.

I have been back and forth on whether I should go ahead with this install, or try to pick up a 250 instead. I don't have any idea what type of power the 292 is going to make.I can't afford to have any head work done now, so I'll just be using a stock 292 head. I hope to install a 194 head with Twisted6's lump ports at a later date.

It obviously will be an improvement over the 'lil 194 that's in it now, but who knows if all of the extra effort will be worth it in the end...

It anyone would like to receive updates on the progress of my car, you can 'subscribe' here:
http://www.63chevyii.com/subscribe/mail.cgi/list/updates/

I second the notion of being original,,,I've been to a few shows,, local, and NNN events,,,the admiration these things get is uncanny, I can, and have been in lines with many beautiful v-cars,,everyone stops at the inline, this thing also buzzes up pretty good, 250, lump head, 700 tranny, 3.08's, and some other goodies,,,fast enough for the 4 drums to be scarry,,

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/fingersix/IMG_9778.jpg

Finger six, that is a gorgeous engine. Tell me more..mm...haha.

-Sam.

thanks Sam,,its a basic block build,,250 .30 over, with flat tops,(does have valve reliefs, used 307'S), and was decked '0',,a mild cam, "comp260h",stock bottom,,
the head was done at Sissels, bosses removed, light port work and valves, 1.94'/1.76", and then some lumps, "by Larry",,I've been through both intakes, Clifford and this Offy, the Offy wins hands down for cruisin around the street, alot more crisp response,,,and the q-jet,, I just had to have,, lots of work getting it right,,but it rocks when it is right,, lots of help from Cliff Ruggles,,(Cliffs hipo),,,
It has a pertronix ignitor2 conversion, and split irons by Langdon, the pipes go down, split sides, and have an 'h' pipe right behind the tranny, then duals all the way out,,it idles like a v-8,, the 'h' gets rid of the rap,,(I know guys, crucify me now),, the 700 tranny has a killer low gear, and the o.d. makes the highway a joy,,, the car does have 3.08's in the back,, I'm really looking for a 3.73, set,,like I said, this thing goes,,with the drums I can't get too brave in traffic,,but soon I will get it to the track,,,I've had other quick cars,, this feels like a high 14 car,,,,I hope,lol,the sound is really odd when you are used to v-things,,,anyways it is fun,,, and different,, man,, by deucecoupes post I really need those 3.73's,,,,C-ya

Wow, nice looking engine. The engine bay looks like a first gen nova...

What type of air cleaner is that?
How did you attach the '6' emblem to the mercruiser valve cover. I am doing something similar (pics to be posted later).


Anyone have any ideas about what the power difference would be between a 250 and 292 that were similarly built?

yes,,, it's a 65,,thanks for the complements,,,
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/fingersix/IMG_9782.jpg
the air cleaner is off a late 60's early 70's bronco,,the international looking model,,the top has been modified to fit a k@n pancake type filter,,the bottom has been thrown away,,and the emblem,, I removed the mounting tabs, and used 3m tape,the type used for wind deflectors and such,,,,

Do you know how tall the air cleaner is? I'm still worried about hood clearance.

I have two spacers under the carb, the conversion one, and a phenolic swirl thing one,,,and a 1" spacer on top of the carb,,it gets the air cleaner about 1/4" above the oil vent cap,,,it clears the factory hood with all the braces,,

you can see alittle better in this pic, how it goes across the filler,,,
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/fingersix/IMG_9776.jpg

It's going to be real close for me, no matter what I do. The 292 block is 1 3/4" taller I believe.

I've never done the clay thing,, I'll go home and see what I can find,,,

the air cleaner cross section in the middle over the valve cover area is 1-5/8" thick,,mine is up high cuase the pvc is in the center of a merc cover, and the oil fill is rear ward alittle,, if you use a different valve cover, this cleaner can squat right down on top,,,

power difference would be between a 250 and 292

Using the same parts, you'll get about the proportion of size (17%) as torque, but at lower RPM.
The peak power will be at lower RPM as well, but more like 6-8%.
The 292 can stand (and needs) more cam, and more venturi area, which will pick it up a bit.

Thanks for the info. I have plans to use the mercruiser valve cover too.

Thanks.

I started a new thread, to try to avoid hijacking this one:

https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=48453#Post48453

I'm starting to really get excited about this, especially with guys giving real world experience in the form of e.t's, hp numbers, and mpg's. Plus just how happy they are with a six cylinder between the fenders.

It's really gotten me going on my car, so that when the engine is together, hopefully so is the rest of the car...haha

Thanks again all, keep it coming if you'd like.

-Sam.

This post is getting me excited too

I was just out in the garage checking out all of the stuff I've collected over the last 3 yrs or so.


What are the torque and hp #'s on a stock 292? I remember it being something like 165hp and 200 ft/lbs?

Thanks for taking those measurements. Another member on here took some measurements for me a while back. I'll have to see if I can dig them up.

Here are some pics of the 'go fast goodies' I've collected for my L6.

All this talk has me wishing Id never taken the 6 out of my 66 chevy 2. I put a nice 380-400hp 327" small block years ago. But with a muncie and 3.73 12bolt putting away mustangs isnt a problem. I think a 250hp 250 or 292 would surprise the mustang guy though.

While working on my '71 issued 292 I looked up stock data and if memory serves (does occasionally) hp was 175 and torque 275 @ 1600rpm. The numbers vary during the smog changes. My engine is on a test stand for now but hope to mount into the frame this summer. When I do I will weigh it and also the 700R4 trans and will post what I find. S

Sam, I think you're right with 175. Atleast, thats what I'm pulling up as well with haphazard research.

Unsafe - those are impressive numbers for a 327. wow. Welcome back to the dark side tho.

I suppose it's time to start figuring out machining costs, and start hacking away at the head...haha. Goot make it flow to get it to go.

-Sam.

Thanks! That makes me feel a little better. I believe the 194s hp was 120, so I'll hopefully notice a difference!

I wish I was installing this in a truck like I originally intended. It would be a lot easier!