Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Advice invited

I've a lump port head 59cc chamber for a 292 I'm going to drop into a 1939 Dodge 2-door fastback which I started building for my grandson. Yesterday, I purchased custom roller rockers for the head. I want the car to be a "responsive" street car. Any advice regarding what else I might do would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. George

What are planning to do for cam, induction and exhaust?

What are you planning on using for a tranny and rearend?

gearing?

Thanks, Gearhead. You have asked questions I have in mind. I want to put in a 700 R4 or 200 R4 tranny. As to the others, cam, induction, exhaust, valves, springs, etcetera, what are some suggestions?

As far as cams go, the Comp Cams 260H or 268H would be a good choice for a street engine if you want good throttle response and a lot of low and midrange torque. Comp Cams also offers kits to go with the cams that have valve springs, retainers, locks, seals, and timing sets. Be sure to use an aluminum timing gear. Header and intake choice is kind of limited to Tom Langdon's cast headers, or Cliffod tube headers, intakes are pretty much either Offenhauser or Clifford. Sounds like a fun project. Good luck with it.

Thanks, Zeke, for your valuable input. I already have an Offy 3 X 1 intake. I'm going to look into the 260H and 268H Comp Cams. Definitely, I'll use Langdon's cast headers.

George
Inliner #5355

George,

I really don't have much input, as I'm not to the cam buying stage yet. But Delta Cams on the west coast will custom grind you a cam, if you supply info. If I'm not mistakek, even without a core, it's only like $150? You'd have to do some research, call around...or maybe someone else will chime in.

The 3x1 Offy will be a challenge to tune, but when it's done, I think the look and spread secondaries will be well worth it.

Any plans for mufflers?

Also, have to say welcome to the inline community, to a fellow Wisconsinite.

-Sam.

Hi, Sam. Thanks for the added info. Rhinelander, huh? I haven't been up there for ages. As to mufflers, I'm thinking Flowmasters, but I'm still waiting to hear some more suggestions from fellow inliners. This seems like a great group.

I see that Gearhead is a fellow state citizen, as well.

We have quite a few inliners from Wisconsin, surprisingly.

I'd look into Porter Mufflers. Kinda old school, and I personally enjoy the sound - might fit your project? They have a website, if you want to check it out.

-Sam.

You don't want flowmasters. Delta will grind you anything you want, even a cam with specs suspiciously similar to a 268 Comp, quickly and cheaply. And, you don't want flowmasters.

Go Pack Go...

or is that cheese...

anyway,

Tripower. What kind of carbs? progressive or direct linkage? ever try to set up muliple carbs before? not the thing to do if you are easily discouraged. Best to run progressive. Lucky for you Offy does make a progressive linkage setup for the 194-292 intake.

You need to consider where the cam is going to make its power and where it's likely going to want to cruise at, and gear the car accordingly. Running an overdrive really helps to tailor the setup so that it will launch good and still cruise economically. Cam and gearing are a package deal. At 268 gross duration, I would start to consider that a slight increase in stall speed may become necessary, but I would put it all together and try it out first.

Why flowmasters? what are you trying to get for a sound? it will not sound like a V8, you're short 2 sound waves...
My impression of flowmasters is that they are trying to make the car sound "tinny" to imply it has more compression, etc... but they just sound tinny to me...
If you don't want the bumble bee experience of true duals with glasspacks, then get a pair of elcheapo "tubo" mufflers from Farm & Fleet, etc... Try those out. If it still has too much buzz, add a crossover... If you want some depth to the sound, a pair of 3-4" diameter tips about 10-16" long can work well too...
All just my opinion of course

Thanks again, Sam and Gearhead. I like to hear opinions other than my own because I learn from others. I'm definitely going to consider different mufflers. As to cam choice, I want it to be assertive, and the initial plan I've made is for a four gear 200 R4.

George

If you use an overdrive tranny you need to be aware that the overall final gear ratio will be pretty high unless you use a lower rearend gear ratio.

(Final ratio= rearend ratio X overdrive)

3.73 X 0.67= 2.50:1 final ratio
4.11 X 0.67= 2.75:1 final ratio

This will work to your advantage since the lower gear ratio will help acceleration while the overdrive will keep the cruise RPM low and help fuel mileage. I'd personally recommend the 4.11 rear gear since it will get the engine RPM more in the cams recommended cruise RPM.

Cruise RPM in overdrive at 70 MPH:
3.73, 26" diamater tire= 2261 RPM
4.11, 26" diameter tire= 2491 RPM.

There are better mufflers than Flowmasters. Walker Sonic Turbos work well and are much cheaper than the F'Masters. They also flowed about 40% better when tested by Jim Hand.

Ron

Thank you, Ron. That's very interesting regarding the gearing. Right now, I have a Ford 9" with 3.50. Will this be a problem?

George

George,

I'd run it and see how it works. It should be a pretty good hiway gear and you can always drop the tranny into 3rd gear around town.

Ron

I agree - 3.50 may work fine, certainly don't spend any money until you see how you like it.

george, i have the 700r4 in my 53 2dr supercharged 270 gmc with 370 gears and 24in. tires. it works great! i think i would use the 200r4. its smaller with less rotational weight and plenty strong. i allso run duel flowmasters dam they sound good!

george,i have a 700r4 in my supercharged 270gmc 53 2dr. with 370 gears and 24 in. tires. it works great! i think i would go with the 200r4. smaller with less rotational weight and plenty strong. oh and i run duel flowmasters dam they sound so good!

George, I would reccoment trying it with what you have.

But I have to ask (as when I looked I didn't see you mention it) how tall are your tires?

It makes an immense difference in how the numerical gear ratio behaves.

Thanks, Nexxussian. I haven't yet purchased the tires that will go with the car. Any suggestions will be helpful.


George

George,

I guess I'll add my 2-cents worth.
I have a 292 with a Wolverine 270 dual-duration cam, water heated 3x2 offy intake with Holley/Webers, Stovebolt headers, 3:55 10 bolt, 30" tall radial whitewalls and a Z-28 T-5. I just got back from the Indy GoodGuys Nats and I got 20.5 MPG @ 60-65 MPH. My Tach was reading approx 1950rpms @ freeway speeds. Having a 20 gallon fuel tank gives me a good range. If I venture to 70 MPH, the mileage drops to about 17 MPG. Car show cruising it gets about 14 MPG. Over a year ago, I installed a Vintage Air system and found that it has a negligible effect on the mileage and performance. It's sure nice in the hot & humid summer days!
Oh ya, I have chambered pipes as my mufflers. Zero restrictions when cruising, great tone but don't follow me on the freeway if your trying to listen to your radio!

RapRap
1940 ChoppedChevyCoupe

Tire size: if you can drive this on good borrowed tires I'd do that first before making a purchase. Start with something that gives the right ride height (total, and front to rear), and if the engine is dead (have to downshift for a hill) at cruising the tire can be shortened (1", less won't do much), if it "buzzes" go taller.

I wont say that 3.73 or 4.X rears aren't nice with an OD transminssion because they do work really well, But at the same time look at some of the newer vehicles that are running 2.8x gearing with OD transmissions, these cars and trucks may have a smaller tire diamiter but if you look at some of the tables changing from a 26.5" tire to a 28" doesnt change all that much. The biggest effect when choosing gears is the cam and how it performs. Most of it isnt the 260 or 268 duration but more on the line of the LC of the cam will play the biggest part or the how things will best work especially if its a cruiser. An example is in my 67 C10, I have over 500HP, 4.10 gears, 30" tires, the cam I was running 236/240@.050 Adv 286/292 on a 110LC didnt like running at baseline cruise of 65-70mph, basically my RPMS wanted to be at around 2500+, yet I swapped the cam to a larger 239/242@050 adv 290/294 but on a 112LC and now I can cruise at 65 without the truck bucking or needing to be cleaned out from what appeared to be loading up. The LC of 112 was the key to just a tad better idle quality and lower rpm cruise speed. Generally anything 114 and higer is also going to take away most any of the hotrod sound, the 113LC is also often used for marine cams and real popular with NOS cams and usually will have more of a choppiness to them. Choosing the wider LC will give a wider powerband vs the shorter hotrod cam 110LC which is more defined as to where the powerband is.

Your next issue is the transmission, the 200R4 is an excellant trans, (the later the better), as the early ones had there issues just like the 700R4 transmissions. Running trips may be an issue to properly setting up the detent cable, the other part is lockup converter, being you wont be running an ECM to control them and the opertion of the lockup generaly you can get around this by some of these kits that are available, the kits basically allow themn to lockup in 3rd & 4th gear or 4th only, going from 3rd non lockup to 4th lockup is a major rpm drop. There are kits available for most 4barrel carbs for the detent but not for a tripower setup using singles, although GM did use single barrel carbs on a lot of the 6's and they where produced through some of the era of the 200 & 700R4 transmissions. One reason why n my sons 50 build we opted to use highway gearing and a built turbo 350 trans.

Typical pricing for a rebuilt 200/700R4 on Ebay is $1200 w/o mods.
Turbo 350 rebuilt with good shift kit & shipped $500 Plus most average used rearends out there have the gears usually around 3.08-3.55 which work good with these. The 3.55's not so much if you like cruising the highways.
Used 200R4 and 700R4 your on your own as they have been out a while and may or may not have been propery taken care of, taking them to the local trans shop for repairs usually around $1800

The reason the newer cars can get by with the high ration rearends is the computer controlled fuel injection. I personally recommend the 350 tranny with a 3.08-3.55 rear gear unless MOST of the driving is on the hiway. The gear ratios in the 200/700 trannys are terrible and the only thing you get is the overdrive. Plus...as you say, their expensive.

Ron

Personally ,
I think the 2004R has great gear ratios,much better than a TH350 or a TH400.
1st 2nd 3rd 4th Reverse
GM
Powerglide 1.76 1.00 1.76
TH350 2.52 1.52 1.00 1.93
TH400 2.48 1.48 1.00 2.00
200r4 2.74 1.57 1.00 0.67 2.07
700r4 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 2.29
4L60E 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 2.29
4L80E 2.48 1.48 1.00 0.75 2.08


I am interested in why the gear ratios are worse in a 2004R?

I agree about the 7004R,lousy gear spacing.

MBHD

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. Keep 'em coming. I really appreciate your helpful posts. The automatic transmission expert in town says the 700 R4 has better gearing than the 200 R4 and is much stronger. Langdon, however, recommends the 200 R4. I respect both men's opinions, but Langdon is a stovebolt expert. So, I still lean in his direction.

George

Depends on what "better" means.
Pulling stumps: tallest gear wins.
Driving on the street: not so much.

I have had friends build up nice 406 SBC's & run a 700R4, & they all came to the same agreement, the gear spacing sucks A$$ & they were running a real torquey 406 SB.

I personnaly do not noctice the big gear spacing when it comes to my Syclone w/a V-6 ,but then again my V-6 puts out 550 ft lbs of torque to push it through the the gear gaps.

On a normally aspirated inline 6 I would not use a 700R4,,,sure it takes off good in 1st,but then it would not push through 2nd all that great.

When running a normally aspirated inline 6 ,you need to keep the engine in the toruqe band more & w/the gearing of the 700R4 it will fall out of the torque band worse than it would w/a 200R4. All IMO.

For a plain jane daily driver,any trans will work fine,you just need to know what you are really looking for in a trans,performance,dive the freeway ,city only driving,,etc???.

I always advise a trans w/a OD,,,you can run pretty low gears & still cruise on the highway.

MBHD

I have to agree Hank on this one. Walt Pearce (an Inliner from Washington state) runs a '32 Chevy coupe with a 250 and a 2004R behind it. He says that the 2004R is lighter and has better ratios than the 700R4 and is plenty strong. His 250 has been dynoed at 250 hp at the rear wheels, so it's a pretty healthy motor. And by the way, I've noticed that there seems to be a little confusion about what these two transmissions are named. I recently did some research into shift kits and discovered that for whatever weird resaon, known only to God and GM, GM flipflopped the R and the 4 between the 200 and 700 transmissions. So they're the 200-4R and the 700-R4. OK, you're right, I'm a detail freak........lol

The 700R4 is a little over kill on a 6cyl even if it runs real good, there is also more loss than a 200R4. Look at Bowtie overdrives for any info on these overdrve transmission, there is some real good information on there sights about modifications. Another problem really frequent is the use of stall converters, choose the wrong one or get a cheapy and you will wish you just put a stock one in and in most cases on most mildly built setups that is all that is needed. The 200/700 transmissions both have a low first gear so unless your at the dragstrip there really isnt any need. There is more heresay about these transmissions due to inexperience and listening to others about there so called issues, and in most cases are usually self inflected. Unless you have driven a good hotrod and spent the time tuning and tweeking them as most transmissions are needed when putting behind something other than stock form and purpose. Being I am not that experienced on inline 6's at this point, my understanding is that you will see modest HP gains but the real increase will be in tourque when modding the engine, cam, compression, good cylinder head work, carburation, exhaust, etc. etc. This is the primary concern that is needed when you decide on which trans you decide to go with and how hard you plan to abuse it and how much you are willing to spend to make it last. I beat the snot out of my 700R4 with over 500HP & 550TQ and has held up well over several years, My tranmission has also been modified to handle this abuse. Cost of this trans was something like $1800, dont expect a stock transmission to handle more than about 300ft lbs of tourqe and constantly abuse it and expect it to last.

The 700 has higher torque capacity, larger case, heavier.
Here's the split between the 200 and 700, based on RPM change.

200R4: 2.78:1 1st gear recovers 56% shifting to 1.57:1 2nd gear, recovers 65% shifting to 1.00:1 3rd gear, recovers 67% shifting to .67:1 OD.

700R4: 3.06:1 1st gear recovers 53% to 1.63:1 2nd gear, recovers 61% to 1.00:1 3rd gear, recovers 70% to .70:1 OD.

The 700 has 10% more torque multiplication in 1st, and 4.5% higher RPM in OD.

200R4: 2.78:1 1st gear recovers 56% shifting to 1.57:1 2nd gear, recovers 65% shifting to 1.00:1 3rd gear, recovers 67% shifting to .67:1 OD.

700R4: 3.06:1 1st gear recovers 53% to 1.63:1 2nd gear, recovers 61% to 1.00:1 3rd gear, recovers 70% to .70:1 OD.


200r4 2.74 1.57 1.00 0.67 2.07
700r4 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 2.29
Must recalculate .;-)

MBHD

No, I don't think I'll bother - wouldn't want to keep you too busy.

Not sure what you mean,but you are into numbers I would think you would want to correct yourself & give us correct info .

Two cents thrown.

BTW,do you even own an inline? Lets hear about it.


MBHD

Which ratios are correct?
Depends on who you believe. I read about 30 different sites, and the numbers shown are the most frequently quoted. Many "big names" disagree with each other, and even factory literature rounds off numbers. I couldn't find any with the actual tooth counts (which is the basis for my transmission calculator programs: http://victorylibrary.com/TRI-4.htm etc.).

Here's a screenshot:

BTW,do you even own an inline? Lets hear about it.

Hmmm...
My neighbor's 15 year old son has a 1967 Dart 225 up on cinder blocks - I guess he's qualified to speak... but I'm not?
Is this the reason I'm always wrong - but I'll be right if I rush out and buy one?
My first in-line: 1960 Valiant 170 3-speed, 1966?
(not my first car: 1958 Impala 348 3 × 2 convert, 4 speed, 1964, or my first vehicle: 1949 AJS 500cc single, 1962).

George,

Getting back to the issue of tire size, you pick the rims and tires that you think will look good on the car, period.

Build the engine to suit the performance level that you are trying to achieve.

Gear it so that the car will behave like it should when you are going down the road.

There is more than one way to put it all together and make it work. Have you read Leo's book? have you done a performance build on anything before, so that you have some baseline experience to draw from?

Very helpful and much to think about. Thank you, guys. I've a lot to learn but this group has a lot of knowledge and has been extremely beneficial.

George
#5355

At the risk of hijacking this thread, please allow me to jump in with an observation and a question.

It would seem to me that when selecting a transmission to begin with, that one should consider not only the horsepower and the tire size, but the entire package: engine horsepower, torque characteristics, anticipated driving style, axle ratio and tire size, but also vehicle weight, windage, towing needs, useage, and the need for economy.

That said, it should be noted that no engineering process is based on absolutes; it is instead a series of compromises and trade-offs, and availability of off-the-shelf components is a factor because the strengths of one component can make up for weaknesses in another.

The debate between the 700R4 and the 2004R sounds to me much like the old arguments between close-ratio and wide-ratio four-speed manuals we used to hear years ago... Sure, the close-ratio four-speed was better for performance once you got it rolling, but the wide-ratio trans was simply easier and more pleasant to drive in realistic day-to-day situations. Massive engine torque and clutch-slipping made up for the lack of a low enough starting cog in the CR trans. A wide torque band made up for wide gear spacing in the WR trans.

To me, it all seems to come down to a realistic appreciation of vehicle usage as an entire package.

I'm about to start on a restoration/repowering of my '69 Chev 3/4 ton pickup, currently equipped with a 350/TH400, and with a 4.10 axle and 16" wheels. I plan on installing a turbocharged EFI 292 in front of a 700R4. This truck will continue to be a working truck, generally driven only when loads are to be hauled. Most loads are small, but it is not unusual for me to put 3000 pounds of rock or lumber on board, or to pull a 10,000 pound trailer.

I hope to acheive somewhat better economy when lightly loaded despite the non-aerodynamic shape, but don't want to give up the ability to handle heavy loads when necessary. I've picked the 700R4 for the overdrive, but also for the 3.06 first gear to help get this 5000 pound truck moving and to get the turbo spooled up. I've also picked a turbo with a 1.10 A/R because I don't want tremendous torque below the middle rev range or want large exhaust restrictions at higher RPM. Because of the 3.06 first and the 4.10 final, I'm not seeing a need for an elevated stall speed on the convertor. I also assume that the engine's mid-range boosted torque should allow it to handle the large speed variation between gears, making the truck reasonably quick and fun to drive when unloaded.

I think that all too often we give advice based on a single point of view, whether that be strip performance, bragging rights, grocery-getting, or cruising main street or whatever else and forgetting that vehicles will be expected to be many things at different times. Based on the entire package then, do my choices seem reasonable? Based on George's plan for a responsive 3000 pound (or so) street car, what seems reasonable?

Fire away, gentlemen...

the entire package
I agree, of course.
IMHO the 700 is the better choice for your project for the reasons you mentioned, especially torque capacity and 1st gear ratio.
Although both will handle any power a mild or warm L6 will produce with only a good selection of parts (typically from Corvette, V8, diesel etc. as to clutch pack), if you anticipate major mods in future the 200's safety margin gets thin and it's cheaper to start with the 700.

One range where the 200 has an advantage is where the original axle is numerically high (3.73), so the lower 200 1st gear is harmless and its steeper OD (.67 vs. .70) is helpful.
The reverse: a vehicle with a very tall axle (3.00) will need as much 1st gear as possible, and less OD so the 700 wins here.

More input, more data, more discussion = better choices.

I have a 41 Plymouth with a built 250 six (260 comp cam)and a 700R4 hooked to a 9" ford 3.50 gears and 27" tall tires. I built this car to drive. Last year pulling my roadster on a trailer from the convention in Iowa I avg 20 mpg. last weeek I attended the NTBA nationals in Lenoir North Carolina. Towing the roadster I averaged 14.2 Mpg and pulled many hills with 8 and 9 percent grades. The most important thing about either of the O D transmissions is getting the throttle pressure set properly.