Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Dyno day for a 292, Need help

I think its a win/win situation for the whole Inliner community. This is going to be the first time that real data is going to be revealed using many of the same components that you guys have been using for years, you just didn't really know how well they actually worked, or what works better. Its also a groundbreaking moment, in that a "top shelf" performance magazine has expressed interest in using this project as a feature story in their pages. This probably is the very first time that such a thorough dyno test of so many combos featuring an inline Chevy 6 has ever been done in such a publictaion....ever, or at least in our lifetime. Maybe it will stir and spark interest for other magazines to follow. I think it will also continue to show that Inliners International is kind of a "movers and shakers" type of forum, and a true leader in the Inline community, and hopefully continue to draw more and more members into it....

Do I hear maybe making it a 3 day venture? I'm looking at Toms list and it'll be real tight to do all the cam and head changes in 2 days.

One thing that is in his favor, is that both the cam swaps and the head changes is pretty quick and easy to do in an inline on a dyno. Since the whole engine is exposed all the way around, its not like fighting inside an engine compartment of a car or truck. Plus, all the heads and cams will be staged ahead of time with the cam gears already installed and heads fully assembled. Even with everything planned and laid out, I agree, it will be a full plate to accomplish all this in the time set for it. Tom has sent me a list of head and cam swap combos and the order in which it will occur, so that the possibility of unproductive testing can be minimized, and smoother flowing productive results can be maximized and tested.

CNC-Dude (and Tom):

Have you considered doing a "walk through" with the dyno call team of a representative head and cam change (say) a week prior to the actual event? Doing so will point up some of those "gotchas" that you'd like to avoid at $50/hour. You know the old saying: "the devil is in the details" so it's likely it will be the small things that will be the cause of any trouble you encounter. You'll also get a feel for what kind of time you can expect to perform the typical component swap(s) and that should be valuable when planning the test schedule. Finally, you may see additional or further ways you can "pre-assemble" some of the swap components (beyond those you've already discussed in this thread) to help save some time.

Of course, Murphy's Law (and its corollaries) will be in effect:

1) Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
2) Nothing is as simple as it seems.
3) Everything takes longer than it should.

It would be nice if Murphy had some prior engagement and couldn't attend the dyno session. With all the hard work and planning your team is doing, I'm guessing #1 above will be avoided. But #2 and #3, that's a different story . . .

In any event, you guys are doing an outstanding job and I can't wait to see the outcome of all the hard work, great ideas and contributions that have gone into this project.

Russk, you forgot number 4...Murphy is an optimist!

CNC, I would like to believe that the 'comunity' as a whole would take notice, but there wasn't even a peep (that I saw) after the whole 'six appeal' and <8 series in Car Craft (about 10 years ago I think).

Hope I'm wrong.


If anyoune out there doesn't know that Inliners is the 'mover & shaker' type, they haven't been paying attention.


Tom & CNC

Do you plan to use a 2 piece timing cover of some sort (to expedite cam change)?

My appologies if I missed it somewhere.

There is most definately a 2 piece front cover. Without that, cam changes would be very painfull. Still bad enough having to pull the balancer.

One other thing needed to work on is setting the valve lash quickly. Anyone have a special trick they use?

Tom

I not sure if poly locks would be quicker than the stock rocker nuts, but as far as adjustment goes I have always done mine 1 valve at a time and with 1 guy turning the motor over it shouldn't take but a couple minutes adjusting valves.

Other suggestions:
put a petcock in the block drain with hose for quicker draining of the block when ready to do head swap.

I just reread through the entire post and saw that you intend to run an after market balancer if the crank is drilled for a harmonic balancer bolt, you could hone an old harmonic balancer so that it will just slip on & off by hand. It might also be nice to see if there is any gain by the aftermarket balancer.

Possible couple other tasks,
Often I hear so much about these Edelbrock carbs and how people claim they are so much better, personally I dont think they so and neither does my local Dyno guy as he usually gets another 6+hp with a holley type carb, it would be nice to see a apples to apples swap of a holley vs edelbrock if time prevails.

You are getting a DUI distributor and it will be ?? recurved, it would be nice to see a stock HEI distibutor in there as well to campare that against it.

Nex, unfortunately it seems that ever since the V8 became so strong a contender in the automotive market back in the 50's, that the inlines have just about all but been forgotten. People seem to forget that there were racers setting records with inlines and accomplishing great feats of performance long before the V8's began to dominate the industry. And still today, there are quite a few people continuing to do incredible things with inlines. Even the vintage Stovebolts and GMC engines have some impressive records at Bonneville today still. Several of the guys in Brazil that are using turbos as big as basketballs have even taken these engines to an ever increasing higher level of HP and technology, and need to be recognized also. And its too bad that there has been too many generations of automotive enthusiasts that have grown up since the 50's, that have not even been aware of what has been going on in the inline community since then and the achievments that have been reached by the few that still carry on with them. Its almost like there are (2) different parallel universes in the automotive realm, one that covers all the modern V-stuff and sport compacts and has unlimited literature printed monthly about it, and then the inline 6's universe that no on wants to talk about and has basically had very little coverage in the past 50's years. I doubt we will win any converts over to the inline way of thinking with this magazine coverage, but at least it will be out there in print, and people will have to read past it to get to the rest of the magazine they are interested in. Im sure some percentage of that mags readership will appreciate seeing it featured, and find the dyno results something they always were curious about themelves, perhaps. I think that was what peaked my friend and magazine editor, Rob Kinnan's, interest so much, was it actually will have real data attached to it. Even the previous articles back several years ago of Kirby/Sissell in his magazine, didn't give any before and after results of any parts, or anything you expect to see in a typical engine article. It just had a few pictures and said very little about what to do to modify your inline 6. He told me, you can throw head flow #'s out there all day long, and cam specs and this and that, but with no dyno testing...there is no payoff! Readers want to see the bottom line, or you will loose their interest, he also added. At least, we as a group of inliners will be content to know, that there are those that are still forging ahead with these engines and making a mark of some kind to be helpful and to benefit others who share the same interests.

I think stock rocker nuts risk galling the rocker studs with repeated use. If they don't gall then they might be loose and back off during the pull. I suggest setscrew locking nuts or "polylocks" if that's the correct terminology will be lower failure risk.

Didn't say what type rockers will be used. Stock stamped or rollers? Either way I think stock nuts are a bad idea.

Stroker,
Got the head lifting bracket today. Way nice! That is really going to help exchanging hot heads.

Today also recieved the 5 timing gear sets from Cloyes that were asked for. Boy did they come thru. DUI said the dist is on it's way. Got a busy weekend planned working on 6's.

One other thing to add into the mix. I have the head from my old 292 that was a 4bbl setup. Well I had a 1.94 valved high compression 194 head on it. Pulled it off last night, tomorrow will lump port it and relieve the chambers for better flow with those bigger intake valves. Will probably run it on the 2 biggest cams. Tom

When is the test day?

EFI,
The dyno days are scheduled for Nov 7th and 8th. Tom

If doing an article for a magazine there will have to be photo documentation as well, maybe a vid w/ sound? Have you come to a total for the combinations yet?

I do have some people designated for video and for photograghy. Some even for refreshments!

What total of combinations do you mean? Heads, cams ect or total cost? Tom

The total number of combinations of cam, heads and intakes, for hp and torque purposes. With time restrains you won't be able to try each cam with each intake and each head.

What refreshments will be consumed at the completion of the testing?

Jalopy, there looks like (8) different cam combos with some having as many as (4) different heads to test with that are on the drawing board right now. Tom has mentioned a final test with an additional Hi-compression 194 cylinder head that wasn't part of the original (8) combos. So, if time is on his side and there aren't any hic-ups along the way, we might be able to test all, including this one also. This Hi-compression head should yield the highest HP and torque #'s when combined with the most aggresive cam profiles we have selected. Naturally, it would be pointless to test a stock head with the big flat tappet cams and the biggest valve heads with the stock cam. So only combos that are going to potentially gain forward progress have been selected to test. All the heads and cams are going to be pre-staged with their respective components already assembled to speed up the R&R process, and minimize down time between dyno pulls.

Wow!!! Just the 8 cam combos and pulling the damper over 2 days is impressive, I guess if you have intakes pre-atttached to the heads it will speed things up a lot. But that is still an average of a cam change every 2 hours. Not wanting to be redundant but WOW!!

Glad to hear you thought about my comment.
MBHD

This comment also.
MBHD

The high compression head could be the last finial stage increase. Only swapped on using the equipment that had already proved to gain the most power. What I worry about is the fact that it takes so long to just optimize one engine combination. It isn't just a matter of swapping on a new part. Changing one thing generally means changing the fuel mixture and timing as well. However it goes, it will be very enlightening and probably lay to rest a few myths that have evolved through the years. My hats off to you just for the effort. Checks in the mail.

Hank,
I had thought about the 194 high comp head long ago. But was reluctant because of the additional work to pull head, tear down, and then do all the nessecary machine work to bring it up to standards needed. But I am doing it and with more costs and work not wanted right now.

Armond,
This is indeed a worth while endeavor for me and much will be gained ( I hope)for others to clarify what really works. Same that is done for V8 monthly in the mags and tracks. You are correct and optimizing each setup will take some time. But once a good timing value is found it will likely stay the same for most head/cam setups. Fuel mixture will need to be set for the 2 different carbs and then hopefully close for the remaining pulls. But still may need to be adjusted. It would be much harder to do this in a street car as far as setting up carbs. Tom

By not changing the set up for each test, you are showing what each part actually does, and since most people don't bother with fine tuning anyway, it will be a real test of true bolt on parts.

For this type of mad dash, close on timing and mixture will be good enough. The few extra hp of fine tuning wouldn't be worth chasing in the time that you have.
You have to something for each builder to do!

Good luck with the tests, Joe.

No reason not to install a small chamber head.
If you just install a more agressive camshaft w/out increasing compression will just show how much lower end torque you will lose.
My two cents.

It just seems my comments are not needed. As I posted a couple here & no reply or recognition I posted anything.
Thats the reason I posted them again.

Moderators Please delete them if you find them offensive. Thank you.

MBHD

Hank,
With regard to your last comment:

"It just seems my comments are not needed. As I posted a couple here & no reply or recognition I posted anything.
That's the reason I posted them again.
Moderators Please delete them if you find them offensive. Thank you."

I'm sure that Tom is busier than a one armed paper hanger trying to organize all the parts and pieces necessary for the dyno tests and responding to each and every post in the thread is not a top priority but suggestions are appreciated.
Your post, however, has the tone of a spoiled four year old and and will not add to the spirit and excitement of the thread.
I have never posted here before but felt your remarks warranted a response. Since no one is stepping forward to address this uncalled for behavior I figured what the heck.
While I'm at it, I have also seen the response to questions of new posters answered with the curt response "do we have to answer this question again? We've been through this a thousand times or buy the book"by the moderator Twisted 6.
Well maybe the questioner is not as expert as some of the luminaries here or new to inlines but a rude response will not
win you any new friends
I will probably never post here again since I'm sure I have mortally offended you but I feel that the above needed to be said.
Thanks and goodbye.

Woody

hello i am new . I am a tractor puller who has some interest in a 292 build. I logged on here to ask a question has anyone heard of a massey ferguson rod being utilized in a 292. I have a source that told me that it was one of jim headricks tricks that was used in cotton perrys engines . I would like to know which engine the rod came from the smallest masseys used a 1.5 rod journal and the next up used a 1.97 rod journal.

Hi Mitch, yeah, you hear a lot of untruths and misconceptions about what Jim and Cotton did or didn't do. And this is one of them. With the exception of one time, Jim always used Superod brand aluminum rods in Cotton's engines, and the other time that was the exception, was at the Mile High Nats in Denver, where they used Titanium rods in that engine only one time...well two passes to be exact. One came thru the side of the block. Back then,(6) of them still cost over $2000 bucks, and Jim thought that was too rich for his blood to try again....

wheres this dyno run going to be located. cnc dude you wouldnt be familiar with a t bucket that went by teachers pet years ago would you .

The shop doing the dyno testing for tlowe is located in Iowa, close to where tlowe lives. I think I vaguely recall that car your speaking of.

ok i give who are you . i thought you may have been phil lea thats why i asked about the teachers pet.

Again, I would like to thank all for the support so far.

Got donated parts now from:
DUI HEI dist and wires
Cloyes 5 timing gear sets
Felpro 6 head gaskets and numerous other engine gaskets
Langdons stovebolt side covers
Offenhouser Valve cover
and more stuff to come.

Woody ,
You put it right that I am busier than a 1 handed paper hanger. Now that made me laugh! Always did wish I had 4 arms though. My wife thinks I am nuts, she is probably right as ussual.

Mitch, The shop is in Dysart, Iowa and is within a few miles of my home.

Again, thanks to all for the support and encouragement. Still listening for ideas. My ears are open! Nothing is discounted. Tom

after i get finished with my four cylinder up grade. A allis chalmers 226ci 65 horse 8.1 factory (4x4.5). massaged out to(4.625x5.77) 388ci and 15.2.1 compression . i will either be in the market or doing a 292 buildup . I am after 400hp and 400 ftlbs from 5200 to 7grand before it bowes its head is this feasable

No im not Phil Lea....thankfully!

not knowing who i am talking to this close to my stomping grounds is working on me. do you own a dirt track speedway . you do know that phil takes credit for the aluminum rods .

tlowe i appologise for hijacking youre post . cnc dude is in my back yard so to speak and last year i talked with ronnie and he told me to talk with self . so i called self got some numbers just havent did anything yet . tlowe i didnt see any of ron iskyderains products he has been helpfull with a regrind for my puller.

Do we really need a one top poster to personnally attack me & leave this post here?

Moderators???

Thank you

Woody did a decent job of putting into words what I thought when reading your post as well. I don't frequent this page often - but I have gotten good information from folks here and have tried to help out in areas where I know a few things.

I don't particularly like feedback from others that is critical of something I have said or done - but I listen and try to learn from it. Looking back, that feedback has been the best thing for me.

I hope Woody sticks around - he wouldn't be here if he didn't have an interest in inlines.

Ken Brown
Yacolt, WA
GMC inline nut

It just shows how easily posts can be taken the incorrect way just as you have.

I hope Woody does not stick around ,we do not need people personally attacking other people here on the BB.

He knows how rude his comment was & does not want to post here again.

Two cents thrown

MBHS

I think you all need to stop.It doesn't matter who's post is taken the wrong way or who it upsets, if you don't like it, don't read it and carry on. I'd like to see a comparison of Holley vs Edelbrock carbs but there won't be enough time for Tom to that with only 2 days on the dyno. Right now he's probably stressed out enough just trying to work out a schedule what to swap when and who he has to help him do it. This post started with some of us wanting as much info as we can get about the 194-292 family of inlines. I for one will be happy with whatever I can get.