Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Dyno day for a 292, Need help

Tom,

Don't forget your camera.... videocam would be nice.

Just for fun,,,


try adding a little nitro @ the end of the dyno session,,,,,say 2%

R/C planes & car hobby shops sell 100% nitro.

Just a thought ;-)


MBHD

You can do it DYNO BOY!

Wow tom that sounds like quite the result from the mods described (the 217 Hp 315 Lb ft in post 53226, dang, that's alot a posts).

It certainly sounds like a good performer, looking forward to further progress.

Glad to hear no new "birthmarks" yet, stay safe.

Was there a PAS manifold & PAS lumps in the mix???

Goodluck!!!


MBHD

Tom and CNC-Dude:

It crossed my mind (not a very long trip?) that the data, charts, photos, sights and sounds gathered during the weekend will be far more than those that will make it into the magazine article (or series of articles). I know I'd like to get my hands on as complete as set of documents as possible and I suspect others would as well. Have you considered assembling a DVD that contains a full set of documents, photos, tables, graphs, video, and such, and offer it for a nominal fee? I'd sure be willing to buy a copy.

Russ

Russ, check your messages, I sent you a PM. Yes there are a variety of opportunities that have developed for us through this dyno test, and continue to grow for us every day as well. So, the possibility for expanding into other types of media such as videos and other printed matter is already in the works. We will have a lot of data to digest for sure, so just organizing it into the appropriate formats is what we are going to have to so we can maximize how far we can spread it out.

What is happening? Is everything working. I haven't been this nervous since My son's started driving! Oh well no news is, ah.... no news.

Beater, just spoke to him at 4:55 PM EST, and all is going good, he just did the first cam swap and was fixing to crank it when I talked to him. About the same time you made the post. So I was beginning to wonder myself. Sounds like they will be busy. He did get my Next Day Air package, so he will have that stuff to add to the testing as well. Maybe he will add comments as the day progresses.

Man, I wish I could email them some of my nervous energy. They are going to need it by this time tomorrow. Different head with the first cam? And that went well?

Beater, being that it was that late in the day, I kinda' got the feeling that Tom was hoping to have been farther along. But he said they were just about to crank it at that time. He didn't say if they had made any test pulls prior to this today.

Immmmm baaaaack!


After a very long, grueling, nail biting day, the 292 keeps on chugging like the good ole grain truck it once came out of.

So far we have made (get this ) 9 dyno runs, each run consists of a change and 4-5 runs to get real stable readings. So at least 45 full throttle pulls were made. What a day!

Started with stock head/ stock cam and 180 ish Hp, after much head and cam changes we are now upto 265 hp and only medium street cam and a 184 lump head, all below 5k rpm.

Tomorrow is another long day and a bunch more fun, It really was worth all the effort so far. 4 more cams to test and 2 more heads. And a bunch of other sideline tests to boot.

Today we went thru 3 heads, 4 cams, 2 intakes and other variables.

Still do not have any burns or cuts. Just tired. Report back more on Sunday evening. Tom

That is impressive! That took a team effort. Wow and all that below 5,000. I hope tomorrow is as productive and safe. Beater

More POWER to you!

Getting ready to start another long day. Bacon is cooking. later. Tom

Wish I could have made a second trip up there today but glad I got there Friday. Good luck!

Stroker, Thanks. I wish I could have been there, or be there. It will be interesting to learn how you divided the tasks and what new words you learned.

Tom,
If you have a moment -
Can you describe the exhaust (if any)?
Is it just open collectors, or solid dual pipes (size?) or any mufflers (what kind/brand?)

thanks for the updates you can see all the enthusiasm

I saw 1 5/8 dia full length truck headers into 2 1/2 dia collector pipes into large dyno pipes. I think this was the exhaust for the remainder of testing but I'm not there so can't verify.

Strokersix, that sounds pretty accurate for the exhaust system that will be used with all the testing. Thanks for your help, that one day got Tom and everyone that much farther along than they would have gotten.

Suggestion if not too late - Secondary Opening check?

Maybe you did this already but many times with a Vac Sec carb (Holley 390 or 600), folks will force the secondary open mechanically for the dyno so it doesn't flutter or get lazy about opening.

Or at least if you can film or watch to make sure the secondary is opening all the way.

(A 200hp engine should be able to pull a 390 Holley completely open, and a 300hp engine should be able to pull a 600 Holley all open)

Reason I mention it is, believe it or not, the 3 horsepower hints so far are running about 5% BELOW what my Gonkulator computer predicted, whereas torque was right on. Not that the computer is always (or ever) totally right, I was just looking for things besides timing and jets that might be holding it back a bit like mufflers or a partially open secondary.

Then again all this dyno data will give my Gonkulator a slight attitude adjustment I am sure, so, just suggesting here just in case.

Since most people consider a dyno to be the absolute in real world data acquisition, the fact that you were even able to get within 5% of the established results from one is something to be considered. Some of the very high end software used by many of the Winston Cup teams sometimes misses the mark by that much. 5% at 200 HP isn't that much to think about, but 5% at 800 HP is a whole lot to miss it by.

I am back, after a very long dyno day.
Much has been learned about this motor and some of the different theories out there have been put to test.
offy vs clifford vs PES
stock head thru big valve lump head tests (4 of them)
5 cam tests
even the ole 194 cu in high compression head test

The dynoing is not complete, today did not go as well as yesterday, and maybe yesterday went way better than we deserved.

We chased a bug after a cam change that could not be shook. So not all tests were run , yet. The engine is staying on the dyno for a bit longer, will try to wring out the bug.

Here is the bug.
Head presently: 194 with 1.94 intakes / 1.60 exh. ported and lumped.
cam Clifford 270
Intake Clifford
carb 600 holly
When making the run torq starts nice and is higher than most other runs. About 3600 rpm it seems to have a dip and then pulls again, at higher rpm, there is a definate cough/ hiccup around 4600-4900 rpm. AFR looks good and simular to other runs. Did same thing with another head but was more prevalent. We found a galled exhaust valve and thought we cured it(with other head). This week will try a different dist. If that fails then change the cam, since this is when it started, even with other head.

So far the highest Hp seen was 275, but we are sure that this cam will surely produce 5 hp more. tq with this cam stays above 300 from 2500 - 4600 rpm. but the hiccup kills the dyno run.

I will get the info compiled and let you know more about the specific tests.

I can say this without a doubt, The Clifford manifold wins hands down over a Offy in tq from 2500 rpm Up. And this is where we tested.
Also tested was a PES intake. We could not even get a full pull from it! It must send the worst vacum signal ever to the carb. I even tried to hold the secondaries closed and open to get it to work. Bad science there for us. That was also the start of problems for us on Sunday.

A big thankyou to the local( 2 hr drive ) guy's. They were a huge help. And big thankyou to Tom Langdon and Elmer Stange that drove 8 Hrs to help for 2 days. That is dedication! Dave Jones was a big help on Saturday and kept all the tools and parts going the right way.

I finally succombed to those blasted headers with a intake swap. Got a Rasberry burn on my forearm. Got alot of complaints of the shine in the camera images, what are they talking about? And that Joe Gibbs Racing oil is going to stay in my hands for a week! On the drive home in the Elco, Spilled the crock pot of baked beans in the bed, tried to get the dog to eat them and he thumbed his nose. Guess I will have to clean it up.

So, you get to use the dyno some more? You're brave enough to keep going? It will really be fun to see all of this when it gets sorted out. Sounds like you had some good help. I hear that shine in the camera crap too. I don't know what that is , it's gone when I look through it. Take care of your wound and rest. Thanks! Beater
REMEMBER: The more times beans have been eaten the better dogs like 'em!

He's gone too far to stop now....Plus, there are still some items to test that are likely to provide the biggest gains.

So, maybe some more donations might be in order?

Sam,
I will get a price today for the dyno work done so far. I'll add up the contributions and see how it all fell out.

Had a nice sleep last night, still recouperating from the work.

Got to figure out the bug we have. try a dist first and then a different cam.

Anybody have any ideas on why a PES intake would not work? There were no vacum leaks and we used the same carb. Ussually we could bring the engine up against 200 ft lbs load @ 3000 rpm and the engine would lean right into it like a horse. With the PES , it could not hold the load without bucking up and down. It just could not produce the tq. Maybe we are trying it in the completely wrong application. Its runners are really no bigger than a Clifford, go figure. Tom

Is there something about the PES intake that affects F/A ratio?

The PES we have reminds more of a tunnel ram for a bent engine which are designed for high rpm not torque??? As for the money, in for a penny in for a pound as the British say so let us know how much more you need, you're doing the labor which is plenty so I'll be happy to send more.

Think we need a pic of the PES intake you are talking about when you get a chance.

I was thinking it was a modified clifford with welded up floors & there bolt in lumps?????

Or is it that long looking tunnel ram??? I think if it's the tunnel ram looking intake,,,,need to start off @ a higher RPM like 4000-4500 range. IMO Low RPM will give a weak signal to the carb.

Leelites will know ... J.K. LOL

MBHD

Yeah, its a design like you posted a while back in the ebay auction. Its a real tall high rise style intake, much like a tunnel ram as you mentioned. Probably a race only intake for much higher RPM than the average inliner is looking for.

Isn't the PES designed to use with squared off lumps?? If that is the case then perhaps the high floor on the manifold and the tapered lump don't like each other at low r.p.m......just a thought .....if a/f was checked at a single point that could mask cyl to cyl distribution problems that are sometimes prevalent in a high rise....just food for thought guys; wish I could have been there.......fats

Fats, the correct PES squared off lumps(not teardropped) are being used in conjunction to the PES intake manifold that has the raised floor. Since much of the ebay marketing in the past has suggested that teardropping the PES is not the correct procedure for using them, even though it is claimed to still be superior to the current teardrop style if you do modify the PES lumps that way. Tom wanted to test and see if there was any validity to using them in the manner they(PES)were designed to be used in. So far the main obstacle in using the PES lumps is the PES intake itself. It doesn't appear to be as compatible with more streetable cam/head combos as the Clifford or Offenhauser intakes have shown to be.

PES intake

Jalopy,
Yep that is the intake we tried, maybe we did something wrong. Certainly did give it a honest try. It was like a kid trying to climb a rope and crying that they can't do it before they even tried. The other 2 intakes said bring it on!

We did check the AFR #'s alot with all the combos

Vacum readings were also taken with each cam @ idle and the RPM was noted.

The secondaries were monitored and found to be opening just above 3K RPM.

The exhaust is just as Stoker six said. Clifford truck headers (long) with 2.5" collectors to 2 1/4" pipes(duals) to very large free flowing outdoor exhaust. We opened up the collector flanges from 2".

One other problem encountered was the #3 cam bearing starting to go bad. The oil pressure at idle was showing it's symptoms of only 10 psi at idle. Under a run would still achieve 40 psi. Hoping the engine can continue the runs before having to fix the cam bearings.
I am still figuring out the data and will be sending it out to you guys very soon. This was a blast even though grueling. Do it again in a heartbeat though. And it is still going to continue. Tom

Well you didn't say what size carb your trying to use on the PES intake.But no dout it's to small.Secondly.Even if the clifford runners did measure the same size, There is a VERY Big difference
in the ruuners performance.Due to the over all design. When it came to intakes My 3x4 tunnel ram out performed The offey and the Clifford.Reasoning I beleive is the 90 deg. runner design.
The PES intake will need More carb.Or at the very least bigger jetting on the smaller carb.

Larry,
We were using a 600 cfm Holley. It does have vac secondaries. We tested it to determine if it would have any good characteristics for a street/ hot street setup. It certainly will not fit under the hood of my car and most other cars. The AFR were correct and it did not run lean. We tried to keep them at between 12.5 and 13 as that is what I have found works best for this engine from my experiences.

I have a feeling this intake is best suited for a engine that lives north of 5k RPM and stays there. It is crossed off my list of good street intakes.

Like to see pics of your intake design. How did it work on the street?

[quote=tlowe #1716 I have a feeling this intake is best suited for a engine that lives north of 5k RPM and stays there. It is crossed off my list of good street intakes.[/quote]
My understanding was this intake was designed for circle track racing and was never intended for the street.

Since it won't fit under the hood of most cars without using a hood scoop, it is probably a correct assumption that its a "race only" part. Maybe with a roller cam and a bunch of compression it might act differently.

Dude, thanks for the update ....I quess I "assumed" (we all know what that means ) that the tapered style lumps were used....it was probably mentioned in on of the earlier posts, but I don't think I got through them all.....encouraging news that the clifford didn't give up as much as I had been told....seems the Edelbrock for the street, Clifford for racing myth was busted.....fats