Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected Water injection

So I have an idea for water injection, followed by a question or two...

I am thinking of using a mechanical fuel pump to pump and pressurize the washer fluid and deliver it through a nitrous fogger plate (the kind that mount under the carb).

1- will the mechanical fuel pump have enough pressure to squirt effectively?

2- Is the fogger plate better mounter below the carb (before the turbo) or between the turbo and the intake manifold?

3- If the plate is before the turbo, will the fluid help to keep the turbo cool?

4- will it slow the impellor because it is now turning the added fluid as well as the fuel?

Water doesn't compress so it would have to load the turbo if put in front. On the other hand after the turbo the boost pressure might be more than the water pressure. Most mechanical pumps are made to do volume and not a lot of pressure. Also I don't know how well they would handle water. Then there is the freezing thing and what you have to put in the water to deal with that and how the pump would handle that. Just some thoughts. Water injection is a good tool for draw through turbo set up but I really haven't studied it much. On my Megasquirt set up I hope to be able to program the injectors to avoid detonation. Beater

If you mean a diaphram type mechanical fuel pump, probably not, especially if you install it downstream of the turbo.

We have water injection on the DC-6s where I work. The water injection pumps on those are basically a vane type fuel pump with different vanes, ours have aluminum housings (the vanes run in a steel insert). I would expect a manesium housing (like some Hilborn pumps) to corode while you watch if used in a water injection system. We use a soluable oil in very low concentrations to lubricate our pumps (Chevron "Soluable B") that might help if you tried one of the electric fuel pumps (Holly Black pump, or one of the lage Carters).

FWIW pre turbo water injection can lead to compressor erosion so that wouldn't be my choice.

Most water injection systems utilize a 150psi or so pump to atomize the water. Gasoline will atomize much more readily, hence the lower pressure. No water injection system is recommended pre turbo. I know from experience that Holley pumps will not pump water for very long at all before they won't work due to corrosion of internal parts.

These guys recommend it a lot it seems. http://www.alcohol-injection.com/water-injection-parts-3/

Typical increase in boost pressure w/pre turbo nozzle is 1-2 psi increase.

They also say w/there pre turbo nozzles,the water/meth will evaporate as soon as it hits the compressor wheel.

MBHD

Well, look at that. I've even read that site before. D'oh!

Evaporate, Pulverize, whatever.

Ok, so I understand about the pump pressure.

I am still a little foggy on before or after the turbo (though I will jump over to the link posted and have a read).

Is the turbo or other components still going to rust if I am using the washer fluid and NOT straight water?

Also, what does anyone think of the nitrous fogger plate idea?

I think it's Corky Bell who wrote Maximum Boost, not real sure, who is totally against water injection, but he's against draw through turbos to. I think the plate sounds like a good idea but I'm sure you'll have to play with nozzles because it will be tougher to mist water. Make sure to keep an eye on your fluid level you don't want to run out in the middle of second gear! Beater

I got this from the snow performance website FAQ:

Pre- or Post- throttle body/carburetor?

• Performance: It makes almost no difference. Before or after the throttle plate(s) won’t change the effectiveness of the fluid. A given amount of fluid will absorb a given amount of heat, whether it is done more before or after the throttle plate really doesn’t matter.
• Installation: It is usually easier to inject pre-throttle body in the intake tube. Easy access, no solenoid required (unless rear-mounting a reservoir). On a carburetor, it can actually be easier to use the #40050 carb spacer plate and a #40060 solenoid for a bolt-in installation. These components are included in our RT and MC series systems.
• In a blow-through carburetor setup with an air-box enclosure around the entire carburetor, injecting after the carburetor is preferable.

Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?

• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.

From Devils own forum

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/turbocharged-engines/pre-turbo-nozzle-location-2159.html

I am also of the notion to plan the system for street use, to run without water injection. Racing is a whole different decision. Tom

You guys need to get w/the times.

Running water/meth injection is where its @ & has been @ for years.

It allows you to run pump gas w/a race gas performance @ a much lower cost.

I run it on my Syclone all the time & it works great!

How do you guys think I can run 21-22 psi of boost pressure on lousy 91 octane we have here?

Mainly because of methanol injection,plus the J&S Safegaurd http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
& somewhat modern knock monitoring sensors.

You cannot always hear detonation & if you think you can,,,you are mistaken.

You guys that are planning on boosting your engines @ a high level should be looking into knock montoring devices,dont try & out guess what the auto manufactures have been using for many years now.

Just my two cents,& maybe then some.

Just hoping you guys boosting your engines dont blow them up.


MBHD

Check this place out http://www.alkycontrol.com/ then call and speak with Julio.
i have seen a 30PSI (spike) and held 27 PSI the full 1/4 on 93 Octane and M1 on my car. Plus this guy will hold your hand and walk you through the whole set up.

Yep I heard great support from Julio esp for the GN's & T-Type Regal crowd.

I've seen good reports on the J&S.
Curious: in your opinion, does it pick up other noise from the engine, specifically harmonic vibration at the critical RPM points, as "rattle", or is it tuned to ignore those frequencies (200-250 Hz)?

It can, the sensors are usually calibrated to "listen" in a certain frequency to avoid that.

It's supposed to be matched to the engine speed you expect the detonation to occur.

The systems I have seen also have an electronic (in the software) "sensitivity" adjustment that you can turn down if you are getting false positives.

Ok, so I have another question...

If I use a meth/water injection kit... do I still need to retard the timing under boost?

pre turbo water injection can lead to compressor erosion

I read that this can be reduced by aiming the nozzle against the inner wall of the compressor, rather than allow it to impinge on the blade, but no follow-up.
Better, or same?

You would not need to retard the timing as much as w/running pump gas.

I can say w/guys & there Syclone & Typhoons,running meth injection,normally timing is @ 17 ish total,but when injecting straight meth they turn the total timing up to 24 ish.

But remember,the Syclone stock runs 14-15 psi stock boost pressure.

Guys that run 20-26 psi range are running anywhere from 20-24 degrees of total timing,every engine is different though.

I think Tlowe says he runs about 28 degrees total timing,but he is only running 12 psi of boost pressure,(correct me if I'm incorrect Tom)

Guys running w/out meth see intake air temps pretty high running say 22 psi up to 200 degree F,then when they inject straight meth they see temps in the range of 50-100 F,,,these temps are just general info,not totally 100% accurate because I am going from memory off the top of my head,,but you get the general idea.

Methanol makes a huge difference in power & allows you to crank up the boost as you could be able to when using race gas like C16,but you are running pump gas 91-93 octane.

Guys w/there Buick GNs,& w/there Syclones & Typhoons have used water/meth
,but they will all tell you the same,,,straight methanol injection will make more power than it does w/water/meth injection.

So, in genral,yes, you will not run as much total timing as you would normally aspirated.

Hopes this helps in some way.

According the Devilsown,,a properly sized & directed nozzle does not have much of any errosion problems.

They say the main problem if errosion is caused by water/meth puddling & forming droplets that hits the compressor wheel.


MBHD

Ah, droplet size - yes, that makes sense, higher pressure + small nozzle makes for lower impact on the blades.

Yep,
they have pumps that put out 250 PSI & there smallest nozzle
creates such a fine mist they say once the methanol hits the compressor wheel it instantly evaporates because of the high temp there @ the compressor wheel.


MBHD

The nozzle sprays so little volume it does not change the A/F ratio.


MBHD

Detonation can only come at about 15-20 degrees atdc. The computer always knows where the crank is. If the noise is not at this location the computer ignores it. Multiple knock sensors will make for finer degree of control, but are not usually needed for street applications.
GeminiEFI

Ok, now this may be one of the last questions on the subject. Then again, it may not be...

Water injection or boost controller? What is the better investment for a draw-through?

I understand that the timing needs to be controlled according to boost, but could you not use smaller weights to give less timing and go with the water injection?

I am not sure which is the right thing to go with and would like some professional opinions.

For now, I cannot afford to do both, however... the second one will come as money allows.