Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Performance Enhancements for a Chevy 250

Go for it snowman! Looking back at this thread I think you had a better plan before we started "helping" you. Beater

"Like I said, I'm going to make the best of what I have and I'm going to have a hell of a good time doing it."

This is the spirit and the intent that we love to see!

Go to it, young brother. Enjoy life while you can. It is good that you have the support of a caring father who's going to let you learn what you can, making the best of what you have been given. i hope that inline makes you glad.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and you remind me of me, when I was your age. I'm 22 now, and still not any wiser.

Basically, have fun with it. It's an old car, so it's going to attract attention regardless. It's like a '57 chevy 4-door I saw at a car show last year. Unmolested, with a 235 and oil bath air cleaner. Sure, it have a bit of scuffing and "patina" around the rockers, and the paint was faded. But this sucker was a survivor! Prettiest one there in my opinion - much neater than the high dollar frame offs everyone else was entranced with.

Like everyone else said - start small. Get yourself an intake and exhaust. The Stovebolt Headers are a great piece, and the pipes get bent up to them at whatever angle. Easy to remedy, have an exhaust shop mandrel bend them, and fab the rest, or buy a handful of angles from a parts store, and start trying to make it work. If you have more time than money (like me..and a lot of other guys) then you get creative. The truck headers would need to be sectioned so that they didn't drag on the ground, street sweeper style. Not saying it can't be done - hell, it's what I'll be doing with my Chevy II, because I already have a set.

After the bolt ons, and driving that around for a bit, find a cam and get ready for that swap. Pick yourself up a spare head, and get some work done on that WHILE you are still driving the car. Lumps, bigger valves, a bit of porting, etc. When you tear it down to put your new head and cam (unless the cam is already in) think about maybe putting some 307 flat top pistons in it, to bump the compression.

Bit by bit man, don't jump into this and get swamped and over whelmed. You'll end up discouraged like the rest of the fair weather old car fans. If you can see immediate results, though, it really does boost your moral.

You have a neat car, thats in amazing condition. Have fun with it, learn, and be young. You have your whole life to have a "perfect" car. So, make the best of it, and use whatcha got.

-ahem-.

My apologies for the long winded post.

-Sam.

Snowman,

That is one sweeeeeeeet car. Your video was outstanding. You are justifiable proud of your ride. I would be proud to own it.

Love your enthusiasm. We need more young people like you geeked out about a plain jane old school runner like yours.

Again, that is a great video and car.

hey guys. Just something I was thinking about. I noticed that the shifter for a T-5 is in the back and I was wondering on how I could fit that into a car with bench seats because I just eyeballed it and it would come up from under the seat? I found a working t-5 today at a drag strip my dad and I went to for $250 but unfortunately it sold. and also what other stuff would that conversion to a t-5 take? Steering column, clutch plate, (maybe pressure plate?), and a shortened up driveshaft?

To move the shifter forward you need the rear housing from an S10.

So if I find a T-5, can I can buy it and then just look for a tailhousing of an S-10? So does that mean that all T-5s are the same besides the gear ratios and you can interchange all of the tailhousings? About how much would a tailhousing cost? Thanks

You might be able to do a search on here and find some links that can help with some T5 interchange info for you.

Cool project and story....good luck!

The tailhousings are interchangeable as long as you arfe using 'non world class' (GM) transmissions. There are several S10 T5 on e-bay now. You wnat to find one with a mechanical speedo. You can buy a converter for one with an electric speedo drive, but those converters are expensive. They are referred to as 'Cable X' converters. They will cost you more than the transmission.
I found mine on Craigslist for $100. Try to find one from a V6 S-10. Be patient, they are out there.
You can download a service manual free from TTC Technologies Inc.

Good Luck-the T5 conversion is the best thing you can do for a street daily driver. I can lug my truck down to about 17-1800 in 5th gear and drop it into 3rd gear and have the RPM's be right at 3600 or so, smoothly, and be right where my HP comes in.

Snowman,

Go to the 'Tech Tips' section of our website and check out the T5 pages, they show the different T5s available and explain the S10 conversion.

Tim

Make sure you engage the parking brake when you put the car in Neutral and get out.

I'm actually looking at getting a muncie m20, m21, or m22 because a t-5 would require a COMPLETE conversion of EVERYTHING. I mean, cross member, bell housing, driveshaft, clutch, and flywheel. I don't have that much money :-(. The muncie would pretty much bolt right in (besides cutting a hole in the floor pan). I'm still confused on the bell housing availability and what can go on what. How will I know what bellhousing to get? I know that the muncie and saginaw are the same but for other transmissions, how will I know if the bellhousing that came with the trans I buy will fit the 250?

Thanks

Ok,just make sure it is not a close ratio Muncie,you will not like the 1st gear sloooooww take off.
That's a 2.20 1st gear.

MBHD

You can use any chevy car bell housing V8 and L6 are the same. There are 10.5 and 11" clutch bells also. either will work.
The car bell will have a hole that is 4 5/8"
A truck bell will be 5 1/8", do not use this.

m20 wide ratio trans
m21 close ratio trans
m22 close ratio trans

If you already have a 3 speed bellhousing,use that one.


MBHD

Just a thought, I think earlier you were wanting a 292 crank to up the 250's cubes.....and said youd rather not do an engine swap cause the engine/tranny is numbers matching.

You could yank the block/tranny, bag it and stick it in a corner somewhere, then drop a 292 in it with whatever tranny you like.

Numbers matching doesnt always mean as much as you might think but this way, you could benefit from more cubic inches now and have the 250 waiting, should you wanna drop it back in, give it to the next owner.

Personally I would use a 153 tooth flywheel 10.5" clutch disc.

Heavy lb diaphram type pressure plate.

I have not checked prices lately ,but I would think a Muncie would cost more than a T-5? Anyone?

Buy a cheap used turbo,methanol injection. It's not that hard or complicated to do.Holley fuel regulator.
Just a thought.

Buy a SPA turbo exhaust manifold & blow through a 2 barrel Holley,simple easy ,much more power than a cam, headers,increased compression etc.

Or use a stock exhast manifold & a "J" pipe up to the turbo like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSB2uvlOOtQ
This was an ultra cheap set-up,,, probably less than $300 for all used parts.
I gave him some tips for parts to use.


MBHD

Well I've actually been seriously considering putting a turbo on but wouldn't I need to do a bunch of internals work like get stronger pistons, rods, crank, and all that bologna? Because if I remember right, 5psi is the normal for boost and 5 times the normal amount of mix which means 5x stress seems like it would make it fall apart. And also, I've only found one turbo exhaust manifold which was like $500 from brazil. So I'm not sure how you got $300 for the setup but $500 for manifold + $200 or $300 for the turbo = $700 or $800.

And would that be all I need? The exhaust manifold and turbo?

And why would I need a methanol injection? What does it do?

Lastly... a turbo would eliminate the ability to have a dual exhaust right? Because I heard a straight six with headers and it sounds AMAZING. But I saw a video with Tom's (Telowe2000 I think) el camino and, no offense, but it sounded... undesirable.

Just my thoughts. Thanks guys

Quote:"Or use a stock exhaust manifold & a "J" pipe up to the turbo like this one." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSB2uvlOOtQ
Seroiusly,this guy maybe spent $300.00 & put it all on a stock high mileage engine.
Methanol will supress detonation + it adds a high octane fuel into your engine.
You will need a oil feed line to the turbo & a drain like to the oil pan. & other small items.
I can help or guys here can help .
If you are serious about it,let us know,I can recommend some turbo books to read.
You are correct about the sound of a turbo w/no muffler,most guys thinks it sounds like a$$. No offence.

You can have dual exhaust like Buick Grand nationals & T-Types have,it's just for looks, because they only have a single turbo stock & therefore only one signal downpipe that splits into dual exhaust.

For a low boost set-up on your engine,as long as it is in OK shape,5 psi will not kill it,,,,,detonation will though,quickly.
That is why I recommend a methanol injection at the very bare minimum.
I also recommend a J&S safegaurd,,here we go again guys

MBHD

Tom also has a video of the latest 250 dyno test with the turbo setup on it. Its hard to get good sound quality on a car at the track when your not standing right next to it, so dont let that cloud your decision. You can also check out the July 2010 Car Craft which is already on the stands. Tom is called on to give some expert consultation for a big turbo article featured in that issue, and is mentioned many times in it. I would have posted a link to their site, but it hasn't been added to their site yet. He also is a dealer for the turbo manifolds you need.

Hear it for yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTS0smggZnE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrjxYih3sQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kc7bi7t308&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ07GsfLCu8&feature=related

Sounds good huh.

Give me a break about expert consultation.

I think someone guided them (Car Craft) to Tlowe for expert consultation, I highly doubt a magazine went out of there way to find him,I could be wrong I guess.
No offense.Take a breath & count to 10,this is my opinion.

He thinks the 250 on the dyno a .96 turbine housing is perfect,,,,,,wrong,,,unless you just want top end power with no balls on the low end,,,here is a good example of the wrong turbo installed w/too big a turbine A/R.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WB8kXA68FE&feature=related

No offense to Douglas,did not have another first hand knowledge example. ,IIRC 15.7 @ 135 MPH.

And no,he did not stall the engine & no,he did not let off the gas pedal,,just too big A/R on the turbo,camshaft was too big also.


Remember him stating a .96 A/R turbine housing was perfect,could go bigger if need be.
And that recommendation was just from running the engine dyno w/out even knowing have it would react in a car.


If that's the case,then w/his 292 (bigger engine than the 250)he should try out a .96 or a 1. something A/R on the 65 Elky,see how he likes that w/his low stall converter. Answer,he will not like it.

The engine dyno load will be different than an actual car driving load.

I think you need to know first hand knowledge on what works & does not work on an actual vehicle.
He has a perfect test bed to do these tests on different size housings,,the 65 turbo elky. He should use it.

If you want to be in a mag it's not hard.

It's really easy if you give free parts,or labor,or even let them mod your vehicle & test it/beat the crap out of it,,,no?

Also,,,snowman does not have a lot of $$$$ he is trying to put together a very low dollar combo.

Smowman,if you are reading these posts,do not install a .96 A/R turbine housing on your stock 250,the boost will come in real late & you will not like the everyday driving of a slow spooling turbo.

MBHD

You'd be surprised at how many writers for car mags have been lurking on here and other forums. Thats how they find sources for many of their articles.

.

And what do you think im saying.

.

This place has turned into a complete soap opera.

Yes, I have written freelance for(4) car magazines previously, and was a staff writer for several others, and had my articles printed in all of them. But what im saying about magazine writers lurking on here, is that, it is no secret that a former Hot Rod magazine editor is a member of the HAMB and several other car forums. Its common now for writers to search out forums that are related to the stories they want to write about. So its possible that this is how Car Craft found Tom. Plus when you do a google search for inline Chevy 6 and turbos you will also find him that way. You just never know who sees what you talk about on a forum.

Your turn again to stand on the box.

I think : snowman4839 would not be upset about this banter.

He himself is not sure which way he wants to mod his engine,we have been going around & around here on this post with all differnt types of mods & ways to go,so untill he is set on which way to go,we will settle down & get real serious for him & you.
Thanks so much.

MBHD

I'll get on!

Yep Jeff Smith contacted me in just the way CNC-DUDE says. Got a email one day out of the blue, we correspond with each other and next thing you know , were talking on the phone. Quite surprised to see it printed.

Now if I can just get the dyno stuff printed

Tom

I think the turbo would be a good compromise for him. He could do a relatively mild inexpensive turbo install, and as long as he stays conservative with the tuning, it should provide him with a lot of bang for the buck. As Hank has said many times, the methanol injection can be a real life saver in the long run.

.

.

He told me he did a search for inline 6 turbo chevy. I have also looked and it is easy stuff to find.

BTW, the .96 housing on the dyno 250 was used for a few reasons.
1. It was a good turbo I had instock and calculated to be about the correct size.

2. The .96 is a great size for a inline 6 250

The engine was at full spool before 3K rpm. What else can be wanted? It was also a throw down dyno test to just show what a turbo can do.

From what i have seen/search He is not a dealer any lonnger for these intakes.And the 2 US venders Say He's not even on the List.

X2!

To everyone - stop with the silliness. Put yourself into Snowman's situation. Several of you guys appear 'silly' about who know's best, more or whatever.
Snowman is looking for good, constructive input and I'm relatively confident that some of the previous posts/posters have lost/forgotten the purpose of their original posts to this thread.

Just my opinion and I do not need nor expect responses either negative or positive.

PANIC X2

Haha thank you JimW. I'm just looking to get my car fun and drivable. Right now I'm working on getting the exhaust and intake manifolds cleaned up and put back on with a new gasket. But like I mentioned in my other thread I need those little clamps that hold on the manifolds. Where would I get those? Or is that a junkyarding thing? I checked NAPA and AutoZone but neither had em.

But back to performance stuff...

Right now, performance-wise, I'm hesitant to buy anything because I'm still trying to understand what all I need to buy for a turbo car. Like I don't want to buy an intake manifold or headers and then realize 5 months later that I have to sell if for 60% of what I bought if for because I need something turbo-specific. If I'm right, all I need is the methanol injection stuff, turbo, and a turbo exhaust manifold right? And I can just get a clifford racing intake for a 4 barrel. Or would you guys recommend a 2 barrel? And before you answer the 2v4 barrel, keep in mind I'm going to get a much larger cam. So would a larger cam keep the engine from getting flooded with a 4 barrel? or would a 2 barrel just be safer or what?

And can I get the turbo exhaust manifold and then just run it naturally aspirated before I get the actual turbo? or is there a giant hole that can't be plugged without the turbo being attached? And does a turbo setup need a muffler? or does the turbo act as a semi-muffler so that I wouldn't need a muffler?

And what order would you guys recommend getting these parts so that I could get each one, have somewhat of a performance gain that I can notice, and then not have to plug up holes or have it destroy another part?

I was thinking
1)Intake
1.5)Carb
2)Cam/lifters/springs
3)Turbo manifold
4)Turbo and Methanol injection stuff

Does that sound about right?

Lastly, what is the differences between turbo types? I'm just looking to get a used turbo off of craigslist or out of a junkyard or something that I can afford. And you guys were saying something about .96 turbo I think. What is that and how does it compare to others? Does the larger the number mean it takes longer to spool but can create more pressure? Because in that case wouldn't you want the smallest possible that can generate enough PSI that you want so that you can get fast spooling and sufficient PSI? I was thinking of getting one off of a GN or Regal because that's the only car I could think of that would be somewhat common in a junkyard.

Thanks Guys

Snowman,
If I remember correct, you have a 250 in your car(72 Chevelle). The SPA manifold on a 292 will clear the steering for sure, I have done it with a Tangential Exh housing( they sit lower on the manifold). Not sure if a turbo will clear your steering with a shorter in height 250. A "On Center" housing will give more clearance as it sit's higher on the manfold.

>.68, .81,.96 ect refer to the exh housing A/R. The bigger the #, the looser the exhaust is around the exh wheel, less back pressure and less boost. With the correctly sized exh housing/ wheel and compressor side , good boost should be attained at a reasonably low rpm and minimized back pressure on the exhaust so as to not choke up the exhaust.

A turbo from a Buick GN or possibly even better sized is the turbo setup as Beater is using on his changing 4 piles into 1 thread. It is a turbo setup from a 301 pontiac used in Trans Ams 1980 and 81? That one will readily fit under your hood and is cheaper to buy. You can use your old exhaust manifold to run it and a stock intake. It is made to bolt a 4bbl carb to it.

I have recently picked one up at a swapmeet and will do a writeup on configuring it for a install and possibly run it for demonstration purposes. Many guy's have used thes on the inline 6's thru the years. Tom

I'll just stay quiet & have our resident turbo expert here recommend all the stuff you need.

Good luck.



Peace out.

MBHD