Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Help needed to change 4 piles into 1

Not yet. I crawled around in the '89 & '68 some today. It was still too cold for me to be out there long, But I am making progress. I got the MSD wire harness for the "89. It is nice and will make that hook up a snap. When I'm ready. I'm trying to learn more about how Megatune works so I don't destroy what I have done. Is there a diagram that shows which wires on the GM plug are actually connected to the MS through the adapter? I did a little show and tell at our local meeting yesterday. There is quite a bit of interest. Tom

2 weeks... and no noise made yet ...... hmmmm

Guess Tom is ignoring this thread either in shame or panic...

If we keep pushing him, something will have to get done. I think it's PANIC. Tom

I am ashamed to be succumbing to the panic. I just don't know how to make the '89 run without the ECM. I am worried about wrecking the MS. I'm trying to understand the tuning program. I put a coolant temp sensor on the '68 and the first nice day that I have off I'll pull a header and get the O2 sensor on. What if I did the ignition side on the '68 350 before I do the TBI? Set the MS up to run the spark with the MSD and the carb and then do the fuel? Beater

Tom,

I think you have someone nearby that could help you with getting it running.

The hardest step is to get to idle as you have no reference to go from.

Marc

PS: you can always send me your MSQ file and I can have a look see.

Beater,
That first step is a biggy! After that they get smaller and easier. Don't be intimidated, just take it on and conquer it.

I know I can do it. I now understand all the steps that were holding me back. Each new step stumps me for a while. I know I'm closer to the end than the beginning. It's like Marc said, I do have a guy here running an MS on a 350. I could just copy his file and start there. It has been really nuts around here for the last month. I'm starting to catch up a bit.

Tom,

Remeber to warm it up on the stock ECM before trying MS and leave the set timing connector disconnected initially. Then all that is left is fuel to set up. If it will not idle on the stock ECM with the set timing connector unpluged - give the dist. a twist so you have say 10-15* timing BTDC initial. You can set it back later.

Make sure you get RPM showing on the tuning screen.

OK, I think I'm beginning to see how the next stuff goes. I need a decent day and I'll give it a shot. Thanks for sticking around for me. Beater

Tom,

Email me your .msq tune up file I'll have a look see if there is anything odd in the basic setup that would prevent you from starting up.

Don't forget to set the injector outputs for Low Z injectors, the manual explains this quite well. I think the TBI 350 injectors are either 50 or 55 lbs/hr.

Marc

I don't even have a file yet. That is what I'm trying to figure out. I can't tell what I need to change and what should be left as defaults for now. I'm going to see if ,Dave, the local MS user can walk me through it. I think I should just put away this MAC and start using Windows for everything so I can get used to it. My fear is that I will contaminate the whole Megatune program. I guess if I do I can uninstall it and start over. Tom

A little progress. #1.Here I am using Windows. #2. I put a new battery in the '89 and brought it back up by the shop. It runs with the ECM timing signal disconnected. So now I need to build a file to use the MS. Actual use may be at hand. #3. I got the fuel tank etc. off of the '90 Suburban to go on the '68. Building a file and getting it on the MS is the last part that I have no experirnce with. Once that is done it's just car stuff, sorta'. Beater

Tom,

I agree that there is a LOT of info to sort through - since MS covers a LOT of different applications the info has to be there the problem is distilling it down to what you need. Some time I get bogged down in there too.

At least I'll point you in the right direction to get your tune up ready:

Follow the hardware and software configuration instructions for the 7 pin HEI ignition set up which is stock in the '89 -

note you DO NOT NEED THE EXTRA RELAY SHOWN if your are using the GM to MS adapter board its built into the adapter board..

GM 7 pin HEI

Idle air controller

Follow the GM IAC wiring and configure instructions

MS IAC


fuel & injector set up

You need to configure:


[list]
[*]req fuel
[*] low impedance injectors (TBI injectors are low impeadance)
[*]

The values shown in the manual for the TBI injectors work reasonably well and should allow you to get it started.

Read this section on low impedance injectors and how the PWM works Low Z and PWM

In megatune under tools set:

the sensor calibration (MAP)to be:

For the MPX4115 use 10.6 and 121.7 <<< same as a the GM TBI MAP sensor.

Set the thermistor table for both the coolant and MAT sensor to be GM - use the pull down menu to get the value populated into the tuning fields automatically.

Since your running an innovate wideband calibrate the AFR table as wideband, innovate 0V== 10.0 AFR, 5V == 20 AFR

Then before you start and after you have the MS connected to the truck under tools open calibrate TPS - with the throttle close click get current beside the closed throttle box, then mash the throttle to WOT and hit the get current beside the full trottle box WHILE you have the pedal mashed down.

Under injection control

Try these settings:

hit req fuel and enter

engine displacement 350 (or 305 ) put the actual engine size in here
number of cylinders 8
injector flow 55 (if its a 305 try 45)

AFR 14.7:1

hit OK

It may scream an error at you ignore it until the next step is complete

set control algorithm to speed density
squirt/cycle 4
injector staging alternating
four stroke
number of cylinder 8
injector type throttle body
number of injectors 2

then hit burn and then cycle the power to the MS and make sure these have stuck.

Once this and the PWM setting are right your alomost ready to start.

Thank You! That is a big help. Can I burn that to the MS using the power from the stim board or does it have to be in the truck? I'll see what the weather allows tomorrow. It supposed to snow again. Tom

Good grief, i've already had to mow my grass twice. How late in the year do you still have snow in Nevada.

I've seen it stick on the 4th of July. The weeds grow under it so it's hard to tell if you have a foot of snow or foot tall weeds. We don't mow grass here we worship it! Beater

Tom

This is when your conversion from confused guy to smart guy occurs.... the right of passage is getting it started and idling..

Yes you can configure MS plugged into the stim board IF the stim board is connected to a AC/DC power supply. NO 9V batteries.


EFI

PS its snowing here too :(=

I'm going to have a chance Sunday to sit down with a couple of local guys with Megasquirt experience and get some help. I think it will get me up and running very soon. It will be great to have someone be able to actually see where I am having problems. Beater

So... get anywhere?

Yes, It was good to be right there with someone who has done it and actually use my stim, MS, & laptop. He was able to clear up a lot of little things that were keeping me from being able to follow some of your hints. As has been my biggest problem all along there is too much information, at least more than I need at this point. It's really busy here right now. We are moving the water from one of the springs over/through a hill and I'm trying to get my runaway horses back from wild and free roaming herds of the of the far west. Maybe next Sunday I'll be ready to try and run the '89. I can at least play with it now with less fear and get in the settings in that you have sent. It was a good day and more of it makes sense. PROGRESS! Thanks, Tom

Any progress? Got my fingers crossed. Tom

I'm ready to run the '89 on the MS, just waiting for a day off with sun. Once I'm sure I can run the '89 It will be quick and easy to do the conversion on the '68. It is almost ready. I'm still reading and playing with the Mega Tune program. Beater

You make some noise with this yet...? The MS support clock is ticking down to zero unless you get this fired up soon.... Geesh I'm going to have to come down there and chain ya to your laptop....

I just tried it and was getting no connection to the truck. It ran when I put the stock ECM back. I've got stuff today I'll put the stim on it tonight or tomorrow and make sure it's OK. It was a rush thing today and I should not have tried it at all but the sun was shining and the wind was less than 50 mph. It started then died. I think it was with left over fuel. Rewind the clock!

Tom,

Ok I moved the minute hand back 5 min's..... Make sure you fully warm the engine up on the stock ECM first.

Also make sure you have the injectors configuration set up for low impedance injectors. The manual goes into detail on how to do this. You can also send me your tune up file and I'll have a quick look see.

The bonus of TBI is you can look and see if the injectors are spraying fuel while your cranking. After you check all of the above, I'd do this next - it'll tell you right away if you have a fuel delivery problem.

efi

Tom

Email me your tune up file and I'll have a look to see if there is anything off.

This is the one thing with EFI - you can send the tune up file and ask for help - try that with a carb.. .

EFI

I have to work for the next few days. I'll try to make sure everything is OK and give it a try again Friday. If it doesn't start I'll send the file. I'm still a little uncertain of the actual process though I did see it done once in Wendover. Tom

Tom,

Warm the engine on the stock ECM
disconnect the set timing connector and using your timing light adjust the distributor so its running around 20* BTDC base timing. Leave the set timing connector disconnected until you have the idle/low speed fuel set up.

Plug in the MS

Crank and see if you are getting fuel sprayed, if not check on the laptop if you are getting RPM displayed. No RPM means no tach signal ->> no tach signal means no fuel sprayed. The tach signal is what triggers the whole meal deal. If you don't have a tach signal you have something mis-configured and you MUST fix it - nothing will work until you do. Also the fuel pump will not turn on past the inital 2 second prime period unless you have a tach signal.

- you may need to open the throttle a bit while cranking - it may take some diddling to find the right throttle position where it will start and run the first time. The amount of fuel injected during cranking is controlled by the cranking fuel pulse width ONLY not by the fuel table.
- once it starts, if its lean you may have to keep stabing the trottle to activate the "accel" pump.
- if its rich generally the engine will run but you will know if its burning your eyes out...
- as soon as it keeps running say at 1200 RPM open the 3D VE MAP (fuel table) and move the red dot using the arrow keys to where the engine is running indicated by the blue dot. And then either richen or lean the fuel until it idles - remember to adjust all 4 corners around the operating point.
Then let off the throttle a bit and adjust the next operting position. Repeat this process until your at curb idle and the engine will idle normally.


the Q key richens the fuel the W key leans the fuel

Also remember that if it floods open the throttle past 70% and crank - if the throttle is open more than 70% your in clear flood mode. Almost no fuel is injected. As soon as it catches let off or it will die from no fuel.

Tic , tic, tic.......

I got it connected, The truck talks to the MS and the MS talks to the laptop. That is a long way from where we began. I warmed it up on the stock ECM then switched. I set the TPS. It fires and dies right away. It has cranking RPMs. It has to be getting fuel or it wouldn't fire every time I turn it over. What do I change to keep it going. I'll have help here tomorrow, weather permitting. I have the O2 set for narrow bad because it is the stock '89 GMC. It is using the GM MAP and the MS Map set up for real time BP. It's a start, well near start. Tom

Do you have a place to set the minimum IAC setting? If so raise it up. Good job! Keep at it, your almost there. Tom

[This is the one thing with EFI - you can send the tune up file and ask for help - try that with a carb.. .}

Don't need a file with a carb it constantly makes it's own file, I don't see any benefit other than gas mileage.

Not trying to start anything but this how I see it,a
lot easier and cheaper.

Harry

For all out HP,they(carbs or EFI) would be about the same.

For drivability,& produce more mid range torque,usually the EFI will shine over a carb set-up.

I think once you get used to EFI & is set-up correctly,,changes will be much easier,total timing control + fueling .

No arguement from me,carbs are easy for me also.

You can see how Beater is having a hard time w/this,but if someone was there to show him how to do it, I am sure he would catch on right away.
Once he gets comfortable w/the megasquirt,he will make changes much easier.
I would be in the same boat as him w/the megasquirt,I would probably fly some megasquirt guru over to my house & teach me & be done w/it.

MBHD

I'll be honest - the first time is the hardest - after I had everything connected on my first installation - I stood back and asked myself now what! There was very little help around for DIY EFI except that odd person on the MS forum.

Tom

Email me your tune up file I'll look and see if there is anything off.

Did you disconnect the set timing connector?

Can you see fuel being sprayed while cranking?

Harry,

Point taken - however until you have tried EFI its hard to convey the tuneability that it gives you. And yes I can tune a carb reasonably well.

When I can move a fuel or timing value 1% and find power that would take a well equipped carb shop equipped with a wet flow bench to do, its hard to beat.

If your coming to Texas next month you may be able to see it first hand.

I have about half as much in this TBI stuff as a Webber setup would cost. I can also tune carbs. I just thought this would be fun. It might still be.
I'll have help tomorrow. At least someone to turn the key while I check some stuff. Yes, the timing is disconnected. The closed reading on the TPS was 108 and not 0. It may be held open with the set screw. I'll check that. Beater

108 is not unusual for a closed TPS setting.

Your making progress - keep at it.

1) check to see if your getting fuel sprayed while cranking.
2) If you are then its most likely lean.

What numbers are in your REQ FUEL, number of squirts?

Try cycling the key on/off say 4 times before cranking - each time you turn the key off/on MS gives the engine a shot of fuel.