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alrighty good. Thanks for the info
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Got back from the dyno with my dad yesterday to finally see the engine. It was lowered a point in compression by getting dished pistons from 10.25:1 to about 9.25:1 so he could run 87 octane. It has a 750 edel carb with the stock cast intake. Stock rotating assembly. Bored to 408. A pretty chunky cam with a lift of like .480in I think and I'm not sure of the duration or overlap.
In the end, after the dyno and all... it made 301hp and 410 ft/lbs. My dad wasn't at all happy because stock (with the 10.25:1) compression is 340hp/440hp. While it makes me somewhat giddy to know I have a chance of beating him now, it did make me sad to see those numbers after all the time, money, and effort...
After 2 more weeks, I should have enough money to buy that SPA manifold for a whopping $480. If anyone happens to have one for cheaper, I would be very interested so please PM me or something. Then I can get on turbo valvetrain, turbo, intercooler, WG, and BOV. Which will probably be what I'm going to be working for most of the summer. I'm also actively looking for a spare 250 near me to put all the mods on.
Just an FYI
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Snowman,
Ok, sounds like you have a chance to win. 
Your dads 408,,, was this a engine dyno or chassis dyno, what type or make?
What was actually done to his engine? Stock valves, stock heads?
Any porting done?
HP ratings from the factory back then is a bit different than what we use today.
With those numbers pending where they are taken from ,eng or rear wheels.
ET could be as high as 17.0 seconds & as low as 14's in my guestimation.
Forgot weight of car, rear gears, tires he is going to use etc,auto trans, stall on torque converter,bring us up to date on the car again.
MBHD
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From reading, it looks to be a engine dyno. That dyno # is very simular to the #'s generated back when his motor was made. He should be happy, the power is nearly the same with lower compression. Although his power should be closer to 400 hp and the 400+ tq. It is relatively easy to make a engine that produces the same hp as the cubic inchs.
Snowman,
Just another warning, you really need to do your homework, not sure if the SPA manifold will be a good fit in your chassis with a 250. I think the turbo will be a conflict with your steering. My chassis is nearly the same, except mine has a 292 which is nearly 2" taller. My turbo barely clears the steering. Tom
With that said your 250 with some boost will certainly give your dad a run for the money. You will probably burn less gas with normal driving. Your engine will get more attention than his too.
Last edited by tlowe #1716; 05/19/11 10:19 AM.
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Snowman,
Ok, sounds like you have a chance to win.
Your dads 408,,, was this a engine dyno or chassis dyno, what type or make?
What was actually done to his engine? Stock valves, stock heads?
Any porting done?
HP ratings from the factory back then is a bit different than what we use today.
With those numbers pending where they are taken from ,eng or rear wheels.
ET could be as high as 17.0 seconds & as low as 14's in my guestimation.
Forgot weight of car, rear gears, tires he is going to use etc,auto trans, stall on torque converter,bring us up to date on the car again.
MBHD Engine Dyno. The car isn't nearly ready to put the engine in. Didn't notice the make No porting, stock rockers, I'm pretty sure the valvetrain is stock besides his big cam. How are the HP ratings different? He's running a turbo 400 without a transbrake (duh). All together with him in it, it'll be about 3770lbs (I'll have him by about 330lbs in the weight department because of his heavier engine and tranny). He wants to use either a 3.23 or 3.42 LSD. He wants BF T/A Radials 245/60/14s. He's going to by the stall converter after he gets the engine worked out because he wants to know the torque curve before he chooses. Just to compare I'm going to have a 3 speed manual (still trying to find the right ratios). 3440lbs with me in it. I want a 3.23 or 3.42 limited slip too. I want a little taller tires and as wide that will fit so like 265/70/14s. Not sure about the clutch yet (or if I really need a performance one). And I'm gonna get it bored and ported and install lumps. Offy intake. Blow through the holley 390. I'm still trying to choose a turbo but I think I'm probably going to get a t3/t04e .63 A/R turbine as a starting point. They're only like $150 for a china turbo if I need to change it to a 60 series compressor turbo or something if that turbo is WAYYYY far off.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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From reading, it looks to be a engine dyno. That dyno # is very simular to the #'s generated back when his motor was made. He should be happy, the power is nearly the same with lower compression. Although his power should be closer to 400 hp and the 400+ tq. It is relatively easy to make a engine that produces the same hp as the cubic inchs.
Snowman,
Just another warning, you really need to do your homework, not sure if the SPA manifold will be a good fit in your chassis with a 250. I think the turbo will be a conflict with your steering. My chassis is nearly the same, except mine has a 292 which is nearly 2" taller. My turbo barely clears the steering. Tom
With that said your 250 with some boost will certainly give your dad a run for the money. You will probably burn less gas with normal driving. Your engine will get more attention than his too. Well how do you know those old hp/tq ratings are off? I told him he just needs to raise the compression back and he'd easily be in the range he wants but he doesn't want to rip the engine back open because the people building it for him are con artists and charge like $400 just to tear the engine apart. Well I don't really have any choice with the SPA manifold. I mean it's either that or the 2.5" log mani but that's bad for flow you guys have told me time and time again. Besides, I can always buy/make an adapter to move it like turbo nova had to do (I think it was him). And I got to ask. WHY DOES THE 250 BURN SO MUCH GAS? I mean it's only a 4.1 and it gets like 12-14mpg (in my setup). I mean, my friend with a 430 in his 69 Buick Wildcat gets about 11-13mpg.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Engine dyno huh.
That seems pretty low. He will be lucky to run 14's LOL.
You are going to smoke that weak 408!
If your SPA put the turbo close to the stearing shaft, you can always upgrade & use a bolt in rack & pinion stearing unit, should give you more room I would think?
But,,,, do your homework.
Dont know where anyone said the stock 2.5" manifold flows bad for a turbo set-up.
Mileage,, are you running stock timing?
Is your choke partially closed?
Are you flooring it everywhere you go?
How is the compression?
Tires inflated properly?
Front end is perfect/alignment?
Carb worn out, needle worn, etc.
Best my moms stock 73 Nova got on the freeway was 16 MPG. Moving the timing around made a huge difference in power & mileage.
Run an MSD box & an adjustable timing control & play with your timing.
MBHD
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Engine dyno huh.
That seems pretty low. He will be lucky to run 14's LOL.
You are going to smoke that weak 408!
If your SPA put the turbo close to the stearing shaft, you can always upgrade & use a bolt in rack & pinion stearing unit, should give you more room I would think?
But,,,, do your homework.
Dont know where anyone said the stock 2.5" manifold flows bad for a turbo set-up.
Mileage,, are you running stock timing?
Is your choke partially closed?
Are you flooring it everywhere you go?
How is the compression?
Tires inflated properly?
Front end is perfect/alignment?
Carb worn out, needle worn, etc.
Best my moms stock 73 Nova got on the freeway was 16 MPG. Moving the timing around made a huge difference in power & mileage.
Run an MSD box & an adjustable timing control & play with your timing.
MBHD Well thanks for the vote of confidence but I do feel pretty bad for him. And that was just a preliminary. He probably will do what he has to do to get like 375hp out of it. Not to sound like an idiot but I thought all cars were rack and pinion? They have a different form of steering than rack and pinion? Well I think it was tom that said the SPA would flow much better and it would just be all-around easier (but I may be wrong). I'm running like 8 degrees BTDC choke is electric and turns all the way off I floor it like about 15% of the time so not really Haven't tested compression New tires and yes Haven't aligned the front end Freshly rebuilt Holley 390. I checked inside and they did a good job too. What made her milage better? Finding the right advance? More toward TDC? I'll get an MSD box they make for turbos once I get the turbo on there
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Also, keep in mind that a lot of those OEM muscle car HP ratings were exaggerated to help sell cars, and his engine might not have actually made that much power originally, regardless of what the specs said. Many of the late 60's muscle cars were rated at those #'s when they were dynoed with headers, but didn't come close to that when the exhaust manifolds were installed back on them and rolled off the showroom floor. So for him to try and compare what he has now seen on the dyno probably isn't that far away from what it originally made back in the day. I think you'll surprise him for sure.
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I am pretty sure the 408 should make more power. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUTOFAB-6...sQ5fAccessoriesDo you have an advance kit in your HEI? Run as much initial timing as you can w/out getting pinging. What is your stock timing supposed to be set @? You have a stock untuned Holley 390 carb,there are adjustments to do to get better mileage. I recommend a professional.But for now, you should get a wide band O2 reader (to see how rich it really is) & change your jets. I forgot, you have which intake manifold now? I got better mileage by advanceing the timing,more power everywhere & mileage on my moms Nova. MBHD Engine dyno huh.
That seems pretty low. He will be lucky to run 14's LOL.
You are going to smoke that weak 408!
If your SPA put the turbo close to the stearing shaft, you can always upgrade & use a bolt in rack & pinion stearing unit, should give you more room I would think?
But,,,, do your homework.
Dont know where anyone said the stock 2.5" manifold flows bad for a turbo set-up.
Mileage,, are you running stock timing?
Is your choke partially closed?
Are you flooring it everywhere you go?
How is the compression?
Tires inflated properly?
Front end is perfect/alignment?
Carb worn out, needle worn, etc.
Best my moms stock 73 Nova got on the freeway was 16 MPG. Moving the timing around made a huge difference in power & mileage.
Run an MSD box & an adjustable timing control & play with your timing.
MBHD Well thanks for the vote of confidence but I do feel pretty bad for him. And that was just a preliminary. He probably will do what he has to do to get like 375hp out of it. Not to sound like an idiot but I thought all cars were rack and pinion? They have a different form of steering than rack and pinion? Well I think it was tom that said the SPA would flow much better and it would just be all-around easier (but I may be wrong). I'm running like 8 degrees BTDC choke is electric and turns all the way off I floor it like about 15% of the time so not really Haven't tested compression New tires and yes Haven't aligned the front end Freshly rebuilt Holley 390. I checked inside and they did a good job too. What made her milage better? Finding the right advance? More toward TDC? I'll get an MSD box they make for turbos once I get the turbo on there
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I am pretty sure the 408 should make more power. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUTOFAB-6...sQ5fAccessoriesDo you have an advance kit in your HEI? Run as much initial timing as you can w/out getting pinging. What is your stock timing supposed to be set @? You have a stock untuned Holley 390 carb,there are adjustments to do to get better mileage. I recommend a professional.But for now, you should get a wide band O2 reader (to see how rich it really is) & change your jets. I forgot, you have which intake manifold now? I got better mileage by advanceing the timing,more power everywhere & mileage on my moms Nova. MBHD I know his 408 with that cam should make more power So how does the steering attach to that setup?? No I don't and what would it do? Well with even my moderately advanced timing, my engine strains to start but that's what I used to run (advanced til just before it pings) Stock for a 250 is TDC or 0 degrees (and it runs terribly at if it's set that way) Alright. I'll try to find someone to tune it. Would it make that much difference? I looked for a wide band O2 reader and can you reccommend one that doesn't cost like $150?? I have an offy intake with the holley 390 elec. choke
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Check out 14point7.com. If your handy with a soldering iron they offer a lot of options to a wide band. You can monitor several things on one gauge. I'm going to have two in my car to monitor the siamised ports.
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Getting the car properly tuned can make a huge difference. For now, you are better off just buying a wide band reader & see what your A/F ratois are. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessoriesThat way, you will be getting more aquanted w/your Holley carb & how it reacts w/jetting changes,pump squirter changes, accelerator cam changes, air bled mods etc. MBHD [quote=snowman4839 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUTOFAB-6...sQ5fAccessoriesI know his 408 with that cam should make more power So how does the steering attach to that setup?? No I don't and what would it do? Well with even my moderately advanced timing, my engine strains to start but that's what I used to run (advanced til just before it pings) Stock for a 250 is TDC or 0 degrees (and it runs terribly at if it's set that way) Alright. I'll try to find someone to tune it. Would it make that much difference? I looked for a wide band O2 reader and can you reccommend one that doesn't cost like $150?? I have an offy intake with the holley 390 elec. choke [/quote]
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Check out 14point7.com. If your handy with a soldering iron they offer a lot of options to a wide band. You can monitor several things on one gauge. I'm going to have two in my car to monitor the siamised ports. Can you give me a link specifically to the parts you're talking about because from what I've seen, all they're kits are like $200+. And what would I need if I simply wanted to monitor the A/F ratio? An O2 sensor and a led display?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Getting the car properly tuned can make a huge difference. For now, you are better off just buying a wide band reader & see what your A/F ratois are. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessoriesThat way, you will be getting more aquanted w/your Holley carb & how it reacts w/jetting changes,pump squirter changes, accelerator cam changes, air bled mods etc. MBHD What you linked to is only the sensor. What type of unit would I buy to hookup and display the output?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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So do you guys think it'd be worthwhile to get a wide-ratio A/F gauge and push off getting the SPA turbo manifold for a few weeks?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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I just bought a AEM UEGO on ebay. The install was so simple and I love it. It gives me accurate, immediate readout. I plan on putting a video camera on the gauge during a run, so that I can keep my eyes where they need to be. Then, replay it to see where im at. During my first run, my cruise was at an AFR of 10, I would have never guessed that without it. I can already tell how useful this tool will be.
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Yes snowman, get yourself a wideband now, it will save you gas money in the meantime & let you know right there & then on any changes you do to your carb. No more reading plugs. w.o.t.(WIDE OPEN THROTTLE) runs, reading exactly your A/F ratio. This is to put into your tailpipe & can be used in different vehicles. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innovate-...sQ5fAccessoriesMBHD Much more efficient way to tune your ride. That is why I been telling you guys for a long time to get one. You can use a universal type like the Innovate one & use on all your vehicles w/no cat. So do you guys think it'd be worthwhile to get a wide-ratio A/F gauge and push off getting the SPA turbo manifold for a few weeks?
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Turbo is too small. intercooler, maybe something like this to reduce pipe plumbing?(Just an example) http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LARGE-FRO...sQ5fAccessoriesHere is a simular intercooler I have. 31x18x4 3" I payed about $175 for it though. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Front-Mou...sQ5fAccessoriesMy plumbing is like this, not sure you want to go this route?     T or Y fittings, local Dorman supply auto parts store? BOV, & wastegate,,,, you are better off to get quality units that will save your engine & not break. Oil lines get locally. MBHD
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What about it is too small? The compressor housing? The turbine housing? The A/R ratios? Do I need a t3/60 series? Yeah that is a better idea to get an intercooler with the inlet/outlet on the same side. Also what type of turbo do you have on your car and what car is it in? Do you not have problems with your turbo hitting the steering shaft?
Last edited by snowman4839; 06/07/11 01:56 AM.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Compressor wheel is too small also the turbine wheel. You can use the small T3/T4 hybrid Ebay turbo, but it will severly limit your power output. I would go a minimun of a 57 MM compressor wheel. Here is sorta of what I have. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turboneti...sQ5fAccessoriesThe main problem w/the Ebay T3/T4 hybrid turbos is that they are more for smaller 4 cyl engines, hence, small turbine wheel.There going to choke your exhaust flow bigtime! I have a Turbonetics T3/T4 Hybrid 62-1 BB stage 5 turbine wheel. .70 compressor A/R & a .83 A/R for the turbine housing, I also have a .63 turbine housing. I bought the turbo for my Syclone but decided not to use it . So I am just going to stick it on my Camaro. The turbo gets real close to the steering box, not the steering shaft. Thats why my downpipe is made this way to clear the steering box.  I am going to install a rack & pinion steering set-up which will give me a lot more room & save weight. This turbo is something closer to the specs you would need. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-T4-DI...sQ5fAccessoriesor this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUPER-T4-...sQ5fAccessoriesT3 size here: http://cgi.ebay.com/Kinugawa-Turbocharge...=item415a5eff08MBHD
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69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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I think you will have more choices (w/a T4 turbo) for Ebay turbos to get the size you would need. As I stated in previous post,seems most T3/T4 turbos on Ebay are too small & are mostly for 4 cyl engines. Companies like Turbonetics, Garrett,Precision turbo, Exile, etc, can make you a correctly sized T3/T4 turbo, but they will cost more & will be a much better turbo. Also, w/a T4 turbo, you can get an "on center" turbine housing to give you a little more room away from your steering shaft. PG 22 http://turboneticsinc.com/forum/turbos/TN_2011_CAT_MED.pdfhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Turboneti...sQ5fAccessorieshttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...sQ5fAccessories*NOTE: The "on center" housings are not as efficient. MBHD
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I will try and get a pic of how close my turbo is to the shaft. It will rub at times. Mine is a T4 with a tangential housing on a 292. The 250 is almost 2" shorter. A on Center housing will not move the turbo up that much higher. Will try and get that pic too.
Snow,
Have you thought about just making a turbo exh manifold from weld ells?
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I have been suggesting Snowman to run a "J" pipe to locate the turbo in a better location for clearance. issues. Like Shad has done on his GMC pick-up. I had also mentioned he could also run the exhaust pipe to the passenger side for even greater clearance & locate turbo on the pax side. That will save him money, pretty easy to do I he does not need to spend $400 + dollars on the SPA manifold that might not fit his chassis. That will allow him to buy a better turbo, or wastgate or BOV. https://www.inliners.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=62929&fpart=1http://www.youtube.com/user/shadboucher#p/u/4/7n-ETVO3S54MBHD
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I agree with just doing the J pipe. If he is going to buy a cheap turbo. He could make a simple j pipe setup, start with a moderate turbo and later put together a kick but system when his skills get better. Tom
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So are we back to getting a 2.5" log manifold and j-piping that? I don't really have any predisposition to go with any certain setup so I'm really still open for ideas. So does a 2.5" Jpiped log manifold with http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSPEED-...sQ5fAccessories sound good? Also where did you guys find carb hats?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Also where did you guys find carb hats? [/quote] I am running a LOW profile Offenhauser one. I have an extra Spectre 4" superflow one that I will sell. For super value. You can buy a thick aluminum carb. storage top and then weld in a 2,2.5 or what ever size inlet you want. Like this: Aluminum Carb Storage Hat
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Something like these specs: Note: they are a bit big for your needs, you can go smaller on the compressor wheel, no smaller than a 50 MM, but I like to run a larger turbine wheel as not to choke the exhuast so much.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-FLANGE-COMPRESSOR-70-AR-TURBINE-68AR-TURBO-CHARGER-/280692377032?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415a91c5c8 Little big on the compressor, but cheap$$$ http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T4-TURBO-...=item3368761e7aNice GN upgrade http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Grand-Nat...=item43a795e563MBHD
12 port SDS EFI
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I didn't even notice that it was an on-center. Alright Does anyone know of a 2.5" log mani for sale? Also how would you guys go about building a J-pipe? Where would you guys find the bends? Is there some type of place that would have bends like that locally?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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((Also how would you guys go about building a J-pipe? Where would you guys find the bends? Is there some type of place that would have bends like that locally?[/quote] ))
Snowman, I live in Nashville just down the road. I am a value seeker and I found the best and quickest place to find good mandrel bends is summit racing. I have pretty much ordered everything in my build from them. They ship from Atlanta, really quick. I dont know if you are looking for stainless, but summit carries low priced coated steel. I think I bought a 180deg bend with one long leg to do the J-pipe. Mine is in 2". It took alot of measuring, cutting, marking, measuring, cutting, marking to line up, welding. It took a long time, but worth it. I grinded the welds down, scuffed it, and shot it with Rustoleum BBQ paint. It has held up great so far.
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Alright thanks guys.
Tom - what happened to your suggestion about using a .96 A/R turbo? It seems like that's what you use all the time (in your car and in those videos you've made). How would that be different from what hank is telling me to get?
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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I do prefer the bigger A/R. A .84-.96 , Just do not see any cheap ones on Ebay. My experience with a turbo with too small of a A/R was bad, the bigger A/R was/ is much better.
If the exh housing and / or the turbine wheel are too small, the turbo will spool great, but become a cork at higher rpms and rob lots of power. Too big and the opposite happens. Only recomending what works for me on a inline 6.
Inliner Member 1716 65 Chevelle Wagon and 41 Hudson Pickup Information and parts www.12bolt.com
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alright. Well I'll just get a cheap one to mess around with and I'll get a pricer one (maybe with those types of A/Rs) later. I'm planning on getting a U-pipe and cutting it up to make a J-pipe. Then welding a flange onto on side for the turbo. Would you guys suggest I get the divided flange or open flange? I'm going to buy this turbo if nobody has any objection.? Just give me your yes or no because it does end in 15 hours.
Last edited by snowman4839; 06/09/11 06:50 PM.
69 Buick Special Deluxe. Intercooled Turbo Chevy 250 @ 15psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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Is it 304 or 409 that is weldable with a wire welder , even to a mild steel flange? 409 stainless steel can be MIG welded, even to mild steel. It is a magnetic 400 Series ferritic stainless steel, with 11% chrome and low nickel and titanium. 409 SS was introduced in the early 1960's for automotive exhaust systems. http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/ferritic/409_Data_Sheet.pdf
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With Winter's answer, the u bend in 409 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-50-180-...sQ5fAccessoriesThe turbo you show is a 70 size compressor. I think it is too big for your stock oriented 250. A 60 size turbo would be better.
Inliner Member 1716 65 Chevelle Wagon and 41 Hudson Pickup Information and parts www.12bolt.com
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