Inliners International Forums General Discussion Drive Train 3spd overdrive

Hi
I am new to this forum and also new to the inline thing but I just bought a sweet 63 BelAir 4door 3 on the tree 6 with 27,000 original miles.Definatley a keeper.
I found a 3spd w/od complete and I was wondering what you guys think a fair price to give for something like this would be..??
Seems to be all there and in good shape..

$100

Lets see some pics of your ride.
Also, welcome to the forum.

MBHD

Not sure how to add pics.....

If is the later Saginaw 3 speed OD and has the solenoid it's worth at least as much as a Saginaw or Muncie 4 speed. If it's the one used in the mid '50s early '60s it would still be good for you but not worth as much. All of the ODs, all makes. of that era ere Borg Warner most were R-10s some were R-11s.

IMO, there is no way a 3 speed w/OD is going to get the same money as a Muncie 4 speed.

But, there are suckers out there that would pay any price, I suppose.

Just my thoughts.

MBHD

Until the OD shifts into 3rd over on a 4,000 mile road trip with a 4.27 rear gear. Even your mind can get around that! 4 speeds are fun but it all depends on what you want the car to do. Often it is just one more opportunity to miss a shift. You might beat me to the end of the 1/4 but I'll beat you to Texas and back with money in my pocket. Just the facts. Beater

The fully sychroed model that started being built in 1966 is a very sought after unit. I use these to make 4 speed OD saginaws. Guy's love them in cruisers.

The hardest part to find is the solenoid for that late three speed. It has a longer shaft than the rest. Don't ever throw one away. They can be fixed.

Speaking of such, Tlowe, got any pics of these conversions. I do not think I have ever seen one & I am pretty sure some guys here have not either.


That would be the smarter way to go. You could afford to misshift this 4 speed & still beat that bad gear gap 3 spd & still have OD.!

MBHD

You'd be hard pressed to better a 3-speed with the B-W overdrive...

But it needs to be set up so you drive it as a 6-speed, using overdrive in each gear.

To do this with a 4-speed is useless, as the gaps between the gears aren't great enough.

TLowe - do you use R10s or R11s?

Seems like driving a 3 spd like a 6 speed is cause for excessive wear & tear using the OD. And since they seem to be scarce & hard to get rebuilt & pricey, does not make sense to me.
Better off doing what Tlowe does,run a 4 speed & use the OD, for the final gear.

Also using the OD on the 3 speed & use as a 6 speed seems like a crutch to make up for the poor gear spacing.

MBHD

There was a write up about putting the OD on the Saginaw 4 speed in Hot Rod Magazine in May of '70 I think. At any rate common knowledge for decades. You don't really drive a 3 speed OD like a 6 speed, though you can, you just pay attention and use the options, one of which is OD above the 1-1 of Saginaw and Muncie 4 speeds in 4th. There were various 3 speed ratios that when coupled with an OD give many real road options. Much better than limping from town to town just so you can brag about beating an poorly tuned V8. I agree that much of this technology is obsolete, but look at the engines we put in front of these tranmisions. Anyone running a pre 4.2 and talking competitive performance at an affordable price is blowing smoke. It really doesn't matter what gear box is behind the old motors past personal preference, and that is what brings us here anyway.

Beater,

I am not saying Tlowe invented the OD swap,I cannot remember when I heard about that swap a long long time ago,, he seems to be the only one here that probably has these tranny & ODs lying around so we could see some pics, that's all.

With the more modern manuals trans readily available ,personally I would more likely get a 5 or 6 speed trans..
But they cost $$$ & more often, we choose the low dollar route.

MBHD

I agree on the modern trannys. Here is a CHART I found that may be helpful in selecting a manual trans. You could factor in the OD ratio and see what was and was not practical. Does anyone know if a Borg OD has been converted to a stand alone unit?

Nice.
I did not know Muncie made a close ratio 4 spd w/these gear ratios.
Muncie M21W (Close) 2.52 1.73 1.35 1.00
I am thinking that was not a common trans to get w/those gear ratios?

Learn something new again.

MBHD

Hank,
The M21W and M21Y are modern aftermarket gears available for rebuilding Muncie 4 speeds. Notice that one of them is a close ratio 1 st gear with overdrive 4th (which is really 3rd).

The 1 saginaw O/D (later version ) is buried and I will not be able to get pics of it. I'm in rears over my ears!

M20 63-65 1) 2.56 2) 1.91 3) 1.48 4)1.00
M20 66-70 1! 2.52 2) 1.88 3) 1.46 4)1.00
M20 71-74 SAME____________________________
M21 63-74 1) 2.20 2)1.64 3)1.28 40 1.00
M21 SAME___________________________
M22 65-72 SAME__________________________

M20 63-70 input spline 10 Output spline 27
M20 71-74 input spline 26 output spline 32
M21 63-70 " " 10 " " 27
M21 71-74 " " 26 " " 32
M22 65-70 " " 10 " " 27
M22 71-72* " " 26 " " 32
*some 1970 Chevlles may have had 26 spline inputs/32 spline outputs

Also some had the speedometer housing on the Driver side & some on the Passenger side

I'm quite happy with mine set up as it should be. There's no need for those extra shifts unless you are hauling 10 tons or more.

I enjoy driving for the fun of it...

That's why I set up my old Austin with that arrangement. But my point is that gear spacing with a 3-speed and overdrive can be very neat. I never had a moment's bother with the overdrive during the time I used it.

Easy enough to plot the overall ratios.
If the O/D ratio falls somewhere between 2 intermediate gears, it's useful.
If it nearly duplicates an existing ratio, it isn't.

http://ventura.craigslist.org/pts/2471439819.html

This is the norm of what 3speeds sell for.

MBHD

That is not an OD tranny and as you can see there is not much call for them without the OD.

That is why I stated "This is the norm of what 3speeds sell for."

Notice no OD anywhere.

MBHD

Back in the early 60's, I had a couple of friends who drove Austin-Healey 3000's that had a 4-speed and overdrive. I remember one of them telling me that since the overdrive was electically activated, you could rig a switch and wind up with what amounted to an 8-speed trans. That is, 4 forward gears, and overdrive in each gear. I don't know how true that was, and I never rode in one that was set up that way, but it sure sounded interesting.

In 2010 i paid $300.00 for a complete Saginaw three-speed with overdrive in order to obtain the solenoid for the four-speed overdrive conversion in my '52 Chevrolet two-door.

The solenoid needs to be rebuilt, but it is complete. i'm keeping the rest of the overdrive for parts.

My '49 Studebaker 3/4-ton pickup is now on the road with a rebuilt "big six" and a Borg-Warner R-10 overdrive. With its 5.571 differential and 30.6-inch tires, the truck now keeps up with traffic on the interstate -- 60 mph at 2800 rpm.

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

That sounds great Don. When saving parts or doing a 4 speed conversion you have to remember to save the main shaft from the 3 speed. It has room for the 4 speed sliders and fits to the OD. The OD without the 3 speed main shaft is useless. Do you know someone who rebuilds the solenoids? Beater

The only person that i know who claims to rebuild overdrive solenoids is J Pinto of Philadelphia, who advertises in Hemmings Motor News and online. See

http://www.jpintoweb.com/

i have not found anyone closer to home who will work on an overdrive solenoid. As i recall, Mr Pinto's charge for rebuilding an overdrive solenoid was $295.00 several years ago. For most Borg-Warner overdrives, one can buy a new solenoid for less than that. Since the solenoid specific to the Saginaw transmission is "unobtainium," Mr Pinto's service appears to be the only choice that i know so far. He claims that he "can do it when others can't."

God's Peace to you.

d
Inliner #1450

Many years ago,I put a 3speed w/OD in my 55 chevy 6 cyl ambulance,my everyday driver.I put a toggle switch on the shift lever where my thumb sat,disconnected the governor,and ran it as a 6 speed,using the toggle switch to go in & out of OD.It worked perfectly for years,really helped fuel economy,& made that heavy rig drive better with the larger selection of gears.HONE OD.,DOUG NASH(became US. GEAR),& GEAR vendors OD. all can run as stand alone units.Only GEAR VENDORS is still in business,but the units are on E-bay all the time,though expensive usually.

On one of the Nevada to Texas trips in my son's Stude wagon we lost the OD solenoid in Vegas. The drive to Kingman was 50 -55 mph. The Stude rear end gear set was 4.27 to 1. We found a young guy with a shop in Kingman who knew nothing about Borg ODs but asked," Does it come apart?" I said the cover comes off. He said," I can fix it." When we took it apart we found a basic fuse-able link. He re-soldered it and we were on the road. I later learned that most failed OD solenoids have simply melted this link. Sadly thousands where thrown away instead of getting a 5 minute fix. A bad seal causes a sticky dirty solenoid to draw enough current to blow the fuse. When a higher amp fuse is used the link melts. I wonder if the guy in Kingman could be found and if he would be interested in offering this service. He was willing that day to rewind both coils.

I know of a rebuilt 3 spd. OD Saginaw for sale in Nevada for $300. Call Richard McDonough @ 775-727-0881

That is a good deal for someone who likes these trannys.