#67109 - 11/01/11 08:21 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Boucher]
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tlowe #1716
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Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: Dysart, Iowa
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Looking good in the pics.
Couple comments.
To lower the turbo air intake temps, remove the air cleaner , insert a tube and move the air cleaner to the fender well behind headlights.
If you use a high pressure EFI fuel pump, the pressure reduction required will cause excessive heat in the pump and pumped fuel. Use a low pressure pump.
If possible, get a intercooler and get it plumbed in. It will make a world of difference.
You will have to pull the engine to access oil pan.
Keep up the good work. Tom
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#67115 - 11/01/11 04:55 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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I'm pretty confident that I understand what meth and an intercooler do.
Methanol, when injected, raises octane of the charge and absorbs heat in the cylinder which allows for cooler temps.
Water when mixed with meth has the same type of heat absorption without the benefit of octane boost.
Intercooling cools off the compressed air charge because it gets hot when compressed. This gives the charge a cooler starting temperature in the cylinder.
^^^That's what I've gathered from what I've read.
You are understanding what they can do,,, but my main point for you to get them is so you CAN run more initial timing, you CAN run 14 degrees initial or more & you CAN go a lot faster if you install these items alone, then go tune it all in & then you CAN smoke those V-8 thingys. 
You stated it made crazy power & it spooled fast when running 14 degrees initial timing correct?, basically speaking you were very much impressed I believe??
Well, if you get the carb stuff sorted out, you add the intercooler it will improve you power all around, but more important, it will GREATLY reduce the chance of detonation.
Add a methanol injection kit, same thing as above,,, BUT even more so, more power, even more least likely to detonate & will make greater power everywhere in the power band.
MBHD
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#67120 - 11/01/11 07:28 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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Turbo-6
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Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 305
Loc: St. Louis Mo.
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Snowman,
First get the carb setup right so it will idle good with smaller jets, 2.5 power valve, then drill pvcr to make up for the smaller jets, may need a 50cc pump since you only have one, brown cam, bigger squirters. Should idle and respond good.
With a stock head at 15 psi you could make 400 HP but not with a stock pump and lines. 3/8 min. best 1/2 with a return to tank. you need about 32-36 gl/hr @ 22psi (6-8 psi plus 15psi turbo) most pumps are rated at free flow if you try to make pressure the flow go's away. A holley blue will not work, call any pump co. and tell them what you are doing (400+ HP and 15 # boost).
Ign. May need coil upgrade, new wires a must, NGK 6-7 heat range, 30-34* total timing, if ign. is weak a smaller plug gap will help .020.
I do not think you need an intercooler or water injection now just run racing gas when at high boost until you get everything right, it will be much easier and safer for now.
You are proving to all of us what I always thought, that a stock engine can take and make 400HP.
Turbos are easy on the bottom end, just need good pistons.
Harry
PS If you have only one o2 sensor you are taking an average of all 6 cyl and some may be rich and others lean so when everything is running good take it on the hwy. drive it for a few miles, then make a pass and read the plugs to see if they are the same, 400 HP is were you may have a problem with distribition.
Edited by Turbo-6 (11/02/11 05:36 AM)
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Turbo-6
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#67122 - 11/02/11 05:32 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
Active BB Member
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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With methanol injection, it will allow you to run even more timing, which will give you more power.
It would be almost like running race gas on pump gas,plus waaaay less spendy than actually buying race gas, & with this bad economy plus you not haveing extra $$$ to buy race gas,, it just makes sense to go w/the more affordable way for now..
As far as having to rejet & adjust the carb to use methanol injection? Yes, you will most likely need to do so.
Shoot for 10.5-11.0 A/F ratio when injecting methanol.
I was so surprized how much faster my Syclone ran when I switched to a better methanol injection system.
The top end power is where I noticed it the most (it improved everywhere also.), plus it allowed me to run 24 psi on pump 91 octane fuel.
It really is that incredible.
You are only going to be able to advance your timing so much when you add an intercooler, when you also add a methanol injection on top of your intercooler, you will be able to run more agressive timing curve & more total timing, that will equal more power.
I would like to think I somewhat steered you in the right direction on parts to get & when I said for you to go turbocharged when others were telling you to just go natuarally aspirated for now,get a .96 A/R turbine housing, cast pistons won't work etc, etc, etc.
Basically saying, I dont just try & give you all this hype about turbos are the way to go for no good reason, you are seeing the reasons first hand & are getting rewarded for your hard work.
That little 6 you got going is a stock engine w/bolt-on parts, just think what it will run when you get it all tuned & running correctly w/the good supporting parts.1)Fuel pump and reg
2)MSD box
3)Intercooler
4)Meth Injection
And later on, how good a purpose built turbo inline would run. 
When running a methanol injection system, you can have it so it just basically super chills your intake temps & does not add too much meth,,( your A/F ratio should not change too much, requiring rejetting,modding the PVCR,etc) or you can have it so it can add a lot more fuel super chill your intake temps & add more octane it will throw off your A/F ratio when using a lot of methanol, but engines have run still really good when running 9.8-10.0 A/F ratio on pump gas also, it is really easy to adjust.
My Syclone still ran great when the A/F ratio was 10.0 (when I first started messing the the meth injection kit)
I eventually leaned it out & my engine seemed to like 10.5 -10.8 A/F ratio, all on pump 91 octane.
Running a lot of meth & adding a lot of timing will give you the most power, but it will also be on the edge of living & blowing up, meaning, if it fails (the meth injection) & you are running a lot of boost & a lot of timing,, the engine will be destroyed very quickly. You can run the meth system, inbetween just adding a little or adding a lot also. All depends on your goals.
I think I am the only advocate of running methanol injection here it seems,,,but like I told you before, it is really worth your trouble to use it.
I know I cannot afford to use race gas in my Syclone to drive it on the street, thats why methanol makes so much sense to me to use it. Cost less, but like I said, it is more risky if something fails or jet nozzle gets plugged, etc. 
I told Tlowe years ago to put a methanol injection kit on his Elky, but no bite. 
If you are going to change your head gasket,basically cleaning & scraping your head & block surfaces & slapping one on,, use the Felpro 1025 head gasket. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fel-Pro-Performa...=item4cfadcfc39
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-1025/
I'll look for a better pump, I did not know you are planning on running 20 psi.
As far as a cheaper fuel regulator, hard to say to find a cheaper less $ one, but I'll look.
MBHD
BTW, when I advise using methanol I mean using 100% methanol, no water.
It's been proven time & time again on dyno runs & track runs, you will make more power running 100% methanol.
Only drawback, you cannot see methanol burn (in case of a fire) & it is more of a fire hazard than mixing methanol & water.
Methanol kits have come a long way in the last few years.
Systems years ago, used a weak windshield wiper pump or simular, low pressure low volume 10 psi or so.
Pumps now go as high as 250 psi, that equals better vaporiztion, no droplets.
I had an old Edlebrock NOS VINTAGE EDELBROCK 9356 VARA JECTION WATER INJECTION water injection system, years ago, 15 -20 years ago, had a weak windshield pump motor & a nozzle that you would drill your air cleaner lid & install a nozzle, very crude system that realy did not do much but add droplets down your carb, I guess it cleaned the chambers & piston tops @ most.
Not too much adjustable, & the newer meth systems have better fuel curves throughout the entire rpm range. Much more accurate fuel metering.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwAA&dur=3648
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...9QEwCw&dur=1749
Hank - I understand that an intercooler would boost power by giving more power by a denser charge. But why would meth increase power? It seems like meth is a safety device more than a power-adder. Because with the amount of advance you'd have with an intercooler, it seems like any more advance would start to diminish the return? I hope that made some sense?
Also, if I added a meth injection kit, would I need to resize my power valves? Would I need to add less gas because it's adding the meth? SO like if I tune my car like it is now and drill the PVCR to where it's dead on, will a meth injection kit throw that off?
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#67193 - 11/08/11 08:57 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
Active BB Member
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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[quote=snowman4839]I'm not an expert or anything but the pistons look darn near new. My friend noticed something odd though. The 4 rear pistons have 3 circles on them and the other 2 in the front don't. What's with that?
Maybe they have been changed?
Also. I looked at the Felpro 1025 on summit you linked me to and it has a completely different bore size. It's like 4.125" or something. My stock bore size is 3.875". I doubt it would work with .3" difference on each of the bores.
As far as I know, it is the only readily available HG that has a stainless fire ring made to take abuse of turbocharging & blower etc that does not cost an arm & a leg. Like a MLS COMETIC HG w/a cost of $177 dollars & needs a special smooth sealing surfaces. They require surface finishes to be 50 RA or finer and flat within .002”.
Yes it has a 4.125" bore, I am not thrilled about that either but it works & I have used them on my 250's, w/no problems
Since the bore is that much bigger, that is part of the reason I suggested for you to mill your cylinder head to get back some of the compresssion lost by the bigger HG bore.
Do I really need to resurface the head? I didn't plan on adding much to it really but replacing a few important gaskets and cleaning it and painting. Wouldn't that also raise the compression some?
Yes a new flywheel. My original stock one has spider cracks on it. Why would I need a steel flywheel? What benefit does it have? Because it's like an extra $100 that I don't really have right now for a steel one.
I just got done turning the brake rotors on my truck, it had spder cracks also, but after the rotors were turned/cut, the cracks were machined out. (sorta simular)
The steel flywheel does not usually explode like what your cast iron flywheel could possibly do., It's just safer, that's all, & a SFI steel bellhousing, dont want you to maybe get injured, if something lets go, & some tracks might require you to run these special safety equipment?
Usually, when you get your flywheel resurfaced, the cracks will be removed when it gets cut (as long as the cracks are not too deep)
Why would I need a new pressure plate? I replaced it with a stock type one about 4000 miles ago and it still looks great. I never felt it slip under full boost. So I don't see how it would burn up the clutch.
I would think the cracks your flywheel has is caused from slipping, unless you are just slidding the clutch so much you are burning up the clutch & heating up the flywheel?
Maybe not , but that's my thinking. The stock 6 cyl pressure plate is pretty weak IMO, & if you are going through the trouble of these other changes, you might want to consider an upgraded pressure plate w/more gripping power.
I have to take out the crankshaft to replace the rear main seal right? I need to because I had quite a bit of oil slung around in the bellhousing.
I also had a bit of a brain fart with disassembly. I got 4 of the lifters mixed up and I THINK I know where they came from but I'm not sure. What would happen if those 4 lifters did get mixed up and got put in the wrong spot?
Also, would it be a big deal to take out the crank, pistons, and rods? Don't I just need to make sure that I put the bearings and caps in the same place and get a piston ring compressor to put the pistons back in? Then torque everything to spec? Isn't that about it to reassemble the rotating assembly?
[/b]You might be able to change out the rear main seal by just removing the main cap & push out the old seal & slid in the new seal, just the same way the old seal came out.
You can install the rear main seal in backwards. So , make sure which way it goes.
On the lifters,,, need to change the 4 you are not sure about w/new lifters.
[b]MBHD
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#67345 - 11/22/11 07:01 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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tlowe #1716
12 PORT ADVERTISER
Active BB Member
Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: Dysart, Iowa
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Something like this will work. It may be more than your budget for now.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CMB-03-0062/
As stated by Turbo6, you could possibly need 20 PSI of fuel pressure if throwing 15 Lbs of boost.
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#67359 - 11/22/11 06:31 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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tlowe #1716
12 PORT ADVERTISER
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Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: Dysart, Iowa
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As I stated in earlier posts. Using high pressure pump (42 psi) and regulating it down will cause fuel heating. This is not a good thing.
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#67362 - 11/22/11 06:56 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: snowman4839]
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tlowe #1716
12 PORT ADVERTISER
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Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: Dysart, Iowa
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I only looked at the 1st summit page describing the combination. You are correct, you get the idea, so go and find one.
8 PSI is a bit much to run on a holley for full time use. It would be better to run 5-6 PSI of fuel, less chance of the needle and seat not sealing
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#67364 - 11/22/11 08:37 PM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Turbo-6]
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Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 4550
Loc: Ca
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#67487 - 11/29/11 12:20 AM
Re: snowman4839 turbo build
[Re: Mean buzzen half dozen A.K.A. Hank]
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snowman4839
Active BB Member
Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 440
Loc: Memphis, TN
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Well I guess it makes sense that I have to get new lifters for the wear patterns but would i need to get new pushrods or rockers?
Yes, the engine is still out. The valvetrain, head, pushrod covers, and valve covers are on so basically everything is on besides the manifolds. Right now I'm just getting it cleaned up for paint and it'll probably be back together by the end of the week and in the car within a week.
I didn't change the rear main seal, I think it was just the rear part of the oil pan gasket actually so I just didn't mess with any of that jazz and just replaced the oil pan gasket. I didn't touch any of the rotating assembly.
I really have no idea what type of cam specs to get. I was either going to call Lunati or Comp and just get their recommendation. Or... get one of yall to send me a grind sheet for a known turbo cam that works well that I can send to them. So if ya'll have a grind sheet, please send me one.
How much would it delay the spool? Because I'm absolutely in love with how it spools right now. I mean 15psi by 2800? That's perfect. I don't want it coming in at like 4000+?!?
Also now that I have this turbo and all that on, how high can i rev it and not blow it up? I mean stock redline is like 4600 or something? Doesn't it start to float valves or something once you get up past 5000rpm?
Also how high can I keep it at cruise? I mean can I let it cruise at like 3500 or 4000rpm and not break anything?
I STILL CAN"T FIND A FUEL PUMP THAT'LL WORK FOR ME!!!!!! I talked to racepumps through email and they insist that their SBC pump will not work on an I6 even though I'm almost sure they're the same. I'm at a loss of what to do. The closest thing I found was that mallory http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-4060FI/ and that mallory regulator http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-4309/ .
I know you said so but I don't see fuel heating being a problem using these from what I've read. I mean I've looked around and there are people using aeromotive A1000s with their carb blow through applications. That's like a 100gph pump at 90PSI!!! I mean if it works fine for blow through with TWICE the pressure as that mallory pump, I don't see any problems with half the pressure. The only way I could understand it causing fuel heating problems is if it was a dead-head regulator but since it's constantly being circulated, doesn't that eliminate that problem?
Also how would I need to modify my fuel tank for this? How would I put the 6AN fitting on it for the 3/8 feed line?
EDIT: Yeah this is exactly what I thought. This thread specifically says you can use a EFI pump with a carb regulator at carb pressures as long as the carb regulator is return style. He specifically mentions using an A1000 (90PSI!) with an aeromotive CARB regulator for his blow through setup.
If you care to read it, here is the thread.
2ND EDIT: This is the layout. I forgot the inline filter between the tank and pump on the 6AN line. Ad means NPT to AN adapter since the pump and regulator use NPT. basically 6AN between everything except an 8AN return form the reg to the tank. As it turns out, AN stuff is expensive (duh), are there any noticeably cheaper alternatives to hook this stuff together?
Edited by snowman4839 (11/29/11 03:16 AM)
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1969 Buick Special Deluxe. Turbo Chevy 250 @ 10psi on a stock long block. It's kinda fast.
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