Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance Interest in aftermarket 250-292 head?

Guy's,
Been talking with a top notch head manufacturer to make a new head for these engines. The easiest way to a good running 250-292 is a good head.
From building many heads, I have found that much money, time and labor is taken to get a good running head. If you pay someone to do the modifications, guides, seats, valve enlargements ect. Machine work alone can be 500.00.
Upon checking with them, a nicely designed aluminum head can be made and can be offered for almost the same as a fully machined and ported head.

The new head design will allow the use of a stock type intake and exhaust. It will also have raised ports with divided runners ( 12 port) with flow out of the box around 240-250 cfm. The chamber will be a modern quench type design to allow for a more efficient burn. Stock type valvetrain and cover will be used.

So what this will do is be a bolt on part that will:
-be lighter
-produce 20-40 hp and tq more than stock out of box.
-be more efficient
-cost about the same as worked over cast iron head.


What do you think of this?

Who would be interested in one? PM's please

Do you think it is a viable product to produce?

You can also email me direct Tom@12bolt.com

Would the head match up to the Brazil 12 port intakes??

No, the plan is to make it match a stock intake/ exh gasket. A new gasket would be made to fit this head with true divided ports if used with a divided intake. The ports will easily be able to open up to flow higher if needed.

I agree that this may be a marketable product, but the key to low cost is volume. I don't think you're going to sell 1,000 heads, which means the R&D, molds, tooling, etc. are amortized over a small run.
The usual problem with head design:
A. suit all existing parts (highest sale volume, lowest cost to use)
B. as many improvements as possible (race only = much lower volume, much higher cost to use)
In my opinion, none of the commercial manifolds are good enough to warrant duplicating the existing intake port layout. An L6 is (relatively speaking) very easy to design since it's been done 100 times - an excellent example is the stock Sprint manifold. In fact, an exact duplicate will probably work very well and shorten development. It's got the right cylinder spacing (4.40"), and the Sprint intake ports are pretty good size.
I suggest dispensing with the stock pistons as a feature - no valve reliefs, etc.
The intake valve should be very large, and centered as much as possible in the bore, with the exhaust taking whatever is left (that's almost a quote from John Kaase) - this is where current engine development is pointed. How close the exhaust can be is partially a temperature question - how close can the seat inserts be and stay in place.
Making the casting taller than stock raises all the ports, and allows a big short-side radius, but will need taller valves and pushrods.
I suggest using BBC rockers, and install the 7/16" studs with generous clearance for the pushrod.

Who is your target audience? If they did this mod wouldn't they be doing cam intake headers too? So why limit yourself to the stock parts and design and mildly improve the exisiting head rather than stepping up to full cross flow? Sell an integrated Package (like Edel* and Holl* do).

Crossflow, use LS valves, chamber shape, and rockers. Why reinvent the best flowing out of the box stuff? Think about the performance out of a stone stock 5.3, without going over 6000 RPM. For a more torque lower RPM alternative look at Vortec port and chamber (best torque curve SBC head.
Design for different pistons, raise the CR well over 9 with an aluminum head and modern chamber (how lean can a 5.3 run?). There are forged 3.9** LS1 pistons with minimum dish and and standard pin size. Or somebody make a realistically priced true flat top for the 250.
The cam shaft package limits lift, so the high ratio rocker is needed.
Intake positoned to clear stock 250 bore, exhaust where you can get it.
Ditch the factory intake/exhaust, if I'm gonna spend $1000 on a head upgrade then the intake is getting upgraded anyway. Look at how simple the intake is on a 5.3. Or a vortec. New intake should be common plenum (for the carb guys), fully divided at the ports for injectors, and come with injector and nitrous bosses. Think about the LS engines and the carb conversion packages.

Anyways, that my nickel. Not sure I fit your profile as I no longer use the 250's as my DD (get better fuel economy out of my 6.2l diesel's). But that's the stuff I was looking at when my next build was going to be a 250.

I've got to say, completely ripping off a good aftermarket LS1 head designed for the smaller bores, moving only the head bolts, oil drains and coolant ports to match the L6 block would be a awfully attractive product to me, and wouldn't require as much development. It's easy to drop 2 grand into a lump ported stocker. I think 2500 is your price target.

The target audience is anyone considering building a 250 or 292 engine. Even the smaller engines will benefit greatly from this cylinder head design. The biggest advantage of creating a head to use the existing intake and exhaust/headers is, so many guys already own these products and dont have to spend more money additionally to use the new head, making the total investment limited to the cost of the cylinder head. Most enthusiasts are well satisfied with the Offy or Clifford intakes that are available, so creating a whole new intake design is redundant. The induction system isn't where the refinements are needed, its the cylinder head. If at a later time the demand for different intakes warrants a change be made, it can happen then. Other items like valves, rockers, etc., are going to be most likely, components you purchase anyway at the time of completion whether you use the new head or the old siamese head. So your not really adding any additional cost you wouldn't have been spending already at this stage. If you can get a new aluminum head for the same cost as a lump ported head and have 20-40 more HP....and still use the intake, valve cover and exhaust you already have....seems like an easy choice to me. Tom, I think it will be well recieved.

How about moving the intake to the opp. side of the head - leave the exhaust where it is. Much easier to do port injection if the fuel rail is away from the heat. At least you end up with a cross flow head. Put the plugs on center.

Clearly interest by all the suggestions. I'll buy one.

If the intake is moved to the other side will there be distributor clearance issues? And if you raise the intake to clear the dizzy will there be hood clearance issues? I don't know, just a thought.

I hope everyone has considered that a head as described will certainly be ruled illegal by NHRA the moment it's successful (as were the prior attempts).
The higher the state of tune, the smaller the potential sales base.
If it has to run heads up against a 292" V8, guess who wins?

Thats a good point panic, but with only 2 or 3 guys that race in NHRA or IHRA at the sportsman level(Stock and Super Stock classes) with these engines anyway, I didn't think that would even be a market to consider. It would be legal for any of the Inliner backed races for those racers, there's a whole lot more of them there than in NHRA. The Comp classes let them run billet heads and billet blocks now, so that would be a candidate there either, with the exception of Rob Harrison in that class, he's the only one running a Chevy 6 in that class as far as I know. These engines are just about extinct in that type of sanctioned racing.

If your going to modernize the head might as well fix a bunch of other items - doesn't cost any more while the patterns are being made..

Center locate spark plug

If there is a clearance issue - easy to fix - lose the distributor and run COP ignition - check Gary Hart's Jimmy...

Way more accurate timing and better spark.

Put injector bosses directly in the head so the injectors spray hits the back of the intake valve. For non-efi use put a plug in the hole.

Provision to reverse flow the coolant

I would like to say I have a cross flow head pattern being done.
Lots of investigation years ago on this came to nothing as the Vortec 6 looked like it would eclipse the 194-292 and the prices of complete motors were and still are very low.
Much as I like the Vortec 6 I am one of many my age who do not like "electronic black boxes" and all the stuff that goes with it.
When I had a 270 GMC in a Chevy coupe 40 plus years ago to have a 12 port cross flow head was just a dream.
I have another 1939 Coupe with a 292 and I want a 12 port and I will make one or many,I am not too bothered.
I have made a couple of prototype patterns of one cylinder and my second effort has sorted things out.
Exhaust between the pushrods, why ? because the V8 guys since 1955 have wanted to spread the pushrods for bigger and bigger intakes!
Angled, round intake,plug next to it,standard length valves which was difficult to figure out,valve inclination reduced to get the chamber shape correct for the plug swapping sides,BBC rockers, 1.6 and 1.94 or bigger valves,flow on a resin head is difficult as the seats are not 100% but approx. 200 on exhaust, 270 intake.Standard or Blue Flame cover fits( retro Wayne).
Aluminium or cast iron.
Cost? Doing it in NZ makes it competitive but we will have to see after the first one is done.

If you are going to run the exhaust ports past the pushrods you should find a way to incline the intake valve tips AWAY from the pushrods - toward the intake runners. That will obviate the need for a crutch in the ports like lumps.

Canted valves would be even better.

Just curious what the price is for the Ford aftermarket head?

Also,did they make one for the larger 300 CI engine? Price?

MBHD

The Alan Johnson billet head sold for about $9000 bare. It fit the 300.
By the time you added valve train, custom cam, injection, headers, etc you are in maybe $20k - $30K.

If you want to knock down seven second quarter miles you gotta pay the piper.

I was thinking about the replacement head on the inline Ford forum.

MBHD

Hank, its around $1700 ready to bolt on. Its for the small Ford 6 engines, the one for the Ford 300 hasn't been made yet.

MBHD, the small ford 6 head runs around $1,400 bare, a lil over $1,700 complete like CnC-Dude mentioned and then complete head & intake is around $2,000.

Thanks,
That would be a great price for out Chevy L6's
It would be great to see it happen.

MBHD

Tom had mentioned in another post that the Chevy head was going to sell for around $900 for a bare finish machined head with seats and guides installed.

Sounds too good to be true.
Great for eveveryone here.


MBHD

That price is the goal. I have a lot of homework to do. Maybe the Gov will give me a research grant!

I'm getting to the age where I have to calculate the time factor into what I do; when you consider the age of the castings we are using and that they usually require guides, seat work, studs pulled, bosses cut, surfacing and at the very minimum bowl blending and port matching....thats a lot of hours that I could better spend on other things....a pristine casting that didn't require all of that would be welcomed....those of us who have been at it awhile will probably get black lung disease from all of the cast iron in our lungs anyway....fats

Put a prop or a solar device on it and Harry Reid will hand you a bundle especially if you can show that all work and materials will come from a country that hates us. That said, I'm interested. It would likely save money in the long run. Beater

Any updates on the feasibility of offering a modern aluminum head for the Chevrolet 194-292 series engine?

I thought that the guys that made in small inline Ford aftermarket aluminum heads were thinking about making some Chevy ones?
http://classicinlines.com/dynoroom.asp

Maybe I was just dreaming?


MBHD

I think he has decided to stick with Ford's. He is still a long way off from recouping his investment with the small 6 head he sells. And he is now fixing to release a big Ford 6 head.

Tom, any new news on this?

This sounds Great!!!! Any new NEWS.

No news, after much checking and figuring, this would be a expensive endeavor. I do not think there would be enough support of the product to pay for the costs.

If it's not financially practical for someone who already made aluminum heads to run a new batch (no R&D time, no new molds) does that tell us something?

Last year I put an Aussie aluminum crossflow cylinder head, complete with valvetrain, aluminum intake manifold, and beautiful cast aluminum valve cover opn eBay. It sold for $399. Sad. That tells me everything I need to know on this topic.