Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected 4200 turbo project...

As part of the rewire project, the truck got a new EFI controller MS3 which can do sequential injection and ignition while still being able to run additional injectors for other purposes e.g. staged injection or dual fuel (e85/methanol).

So over the Canada Day weekend I re-installed the stock exhaust sprocket/VVT/cam wheel (its all one piece), which will allow full sequential operation.

Another 4200 is already running full sequential on MS3 - just with a different set of crank & cam wheels. The boys report that the throttle response without any injector timing tweaking is outstanding. Wiggle the throttle and the engine just zings.

So this week its my turn to finally test the native GM 7X and 4200 cam wheel s/w.

I have one more work item to complete, that is to install 6 EGT's into the runners. This way I can monitor each hole and if any are lean (or rich) I can individually adjust the AFR on a per cylinder basis once running full sequential.

Later I'll try the VVT code once I have some other items working like closed loop boost control....

The feature list on the MS3 is quite rich and growing. Latest addition is knock sensing windowing. This allow false knock signals to be ignored until x deg before the ignition event and after y degrees after the ignition event.

Once the VVT and sequential code is fully tested we now have a fully tunable EFI solution for the 4200 (less the drive by wire). One of the aftermarket companies offers a stand alone DBW box. Guess they have the $$$ for a big insurance policy.

More to follow

WOW great news. Question, do you get an EGT output table per cylinder and then you correct the AFR input table per cylinder?

Close...

you get a per cylinder correction - manual value input - there is a feature that will read the EGT's and kill spark&fuel if limits are exceeded.

I'll know more as I get further along.

Bitchin!!!!

That's excellent news!

Murphy has decided to visit AGAIN .... bad mechanical noises - 11PM last nite was not the time to pursue the issue.

Turned out the VVT cam advance retarded the cam a full 25* eating up clearance - must have been just just touching - no permanent damage. Root cause is bad machining by the cam grinder - they got the 2 oil passages reversed in the cam from the head pickup to the VVT phaser.

Sounds like my house.

It sure would be nice when I go to a machine shop if they would stick to what I ask them to do.

Is there a way to work around the "mis plumbing" like programming the direction commands backwards, or are you running the factory computer?

Not easily the control valve would have to ON and then turned off % duty cycle to retard the cam - if the valve ever failed and they do, engine damage would follow.

I'm going to have a discussion with the cam grinder... With the cam heat treated it will take special tooling (diamond) to make the corrections. My guess is it will be less expensive to replace the cam.

Is there an easy way to get ahold of Jerry Weigt. Havent had any luck with his email. I'm looking for a flywheel. Also EFI I had some questions for you about your engine build is there an email address i can shoot you over some questions to?

Well after 1800 mile round trip I can say that the Megasquirt 3 with full sequential fuel and spark control works well.

So we now have a fully tunable EFI system to run the 4200 without having to put up with the GM drive by wire crap.

The only part that I have not tested yet is the VVT timing control - others have and say its working well. Later after I get the 4l80E installed and running I'll swap the stock cams into the engine and test the VVT.

COOL!!!

Thank you for the update.

Finally got the 4L80E bolted to the mockup 4200 tonight. No more worrying about if the built 4L60E is going to gernade.

If needed I can add hard parts to the '80E and it'll have no issues holding 1000 HP.

Hope to get the '80 built and ready to go in by next Friday.

[url= Uploaded with ImageShack.us]4L80e ready to bolt up[/url]

Nice,
who makes the adaptor plate & how much is it?

You will like the 4L80e gear ratios over the 4L60E IMO especially going turbo.

I forgot what rear end ratio you are running now?

MBHD

Dave P. makes the adapter - I designed the hub and get a local CNC shop to cut it. The plate is supplied without any holes except roughed in dowel holes. Its water jet cut.

I'd have to check with Dave on the plate cost - don't remember what I paid.

3:54 which is the lowest numerical gear I could get for the dana 60.

I noticed quite a difference in mileage between the 9" and the dana. Close to 2 MPG.

[url= Uploaded with ImageShack.us]mated...[/url]

Well I have all the needed parts to finally start the engine assembly process (again).

Quick rehash

last year bad fuel caused the engine to rattle bad at 80mph with the windows open (no A/C) I couldn't hear it.

Fix..

new pistons with longer skirts & more static compression (8.2 to 8.9) - the J&E pistons were really short skirt - lots of rock. Went 0.010 OS to fix the last of the original bad machining. #2&3 were bored tilted toward the back of the motor enough the rod bearings were showing distress.
new rings
rebush the small end of the rods (small end bushings were beat to crap)
new rod bearings
new rod bolt - more for insurance than needed.

and new for this year billet girdle.

[img] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

Hope to have the short trial assembled this weekend and complete with in 2 weeks.

Did not know it blew up? Or? It was still running when I took it apart - just loud from piston slap and rod pin/bearing noise

Girdle looks nice. How much? $500

Did you get to run the 4L80E? not yet its ready to go in when the engine is broken in - the 4l60 is still in and its the fastest way to get the truck mobile for breaking.

Were you having problems w/the main bearings? No the girdle is insurance for increased power output this year.

Caps moving around? nope. A few years ago I talked to Kevin self about cunningham's 4200 and at what power level they needed to put a girdle in. 700 was the answer.

Marc, great to see progress.

Do you have the secondary fuel system roughed into your truck?

Best of luck with this build.

Yes its alum. I'm in the process (very tedious) on match machining the girdle/top of the main caps for dowels. All 14 have to align.
3/4 done but not a job I'd want to do again any time soon.

In between this working on a buddy's TJ to sort out how to put a 4200 in it instead of the 355 sbc he is thinking of installing.

I know you are upgrading to the 4l80, I'm guessing more for durability than anything. What were the problems with the 4l60? Did it want to break loose too easily at the wheels? If so, would a higher stall converter help? I currently have 4.10 gears, gonna go to 3.73's, and wondering if 3.42's would be better.

Putting a load on your engine will make the turbo to spool up sooner.

Having low gears like 4.10's will cause the turbo to spool up slower, & gets boost later in the later RPM range. Especially in first gear.

Is your application for a turbo or?

Just on average, typical street/strip cars run 3.55s -3.30's, also depending on tire OD.

MBHD

Got tired of fixing the '60e, even with really good parts its was near the limit of where I could lean on it and still trust it to get home. Plus I plan on turning the boost up this year so it would have taken an early retirement and I got other plans for it.

The lower numerical 1st gear will also help get spool time down

Took a while but the girdle is done. Block is washed ready to assemble - starting in the morning. Hope to have all the trial assembly stuff complete by tomorrow evening. [img][/img]

Looking good.

What is going to be different w/this engine build this time around?

MBHD

More static compression, 8.2 to 8.9 + girdle and a few other tweaks to the oil system.

No larger valves installed w/more porting?

Just a piston change?

Same turbo? Forgot the specs?

The increased compression should wake it up a bit.

MBHD

Finally some positive progress...

Got the crank in the block with all the bearing clearances the best that this engines had since the first build (fighting bad machine work ever since). The rest of the short should go together ok .... not saying will to jinx the rest of the build.

Dithered around for a few hours getting the crank set up on the mill to cut a keyway for the damper. First time I had to index a crank on the mill an it took some head scratch to sort out the method. Next one will be easier.

Well I spoke to soon so after this - no more updates until its running....

Hung a piston on a rod Monday - no rings and put it in the hole with the crank at TDC... but the cap on with the bolts finger tight - rotate the crank .... CLUNK WTH now..loosen the rod cap off 3/16 goes up and down .. @#$!@#$!@#$ tighten the cap CLUNK @#$!@#$ take the rod out .. the counterweights are hitting the back of the pin boss.

Get my old piston measure, measure the new ones.. they added 0.2" extra material on the bottom of the pin boss..

So the pistons are taking a nice vacation back at the manufacture in LA.. and I'm stuck on the build ....... mid-June and no parts... This engine has a black cloud following it around...

Finally got the hanger queen out... end of the freaking summer up here.. just a quick round the block but its finally running. For a while there my buddies 250 monojet and points engine was looking appealing..

More miles on it this week to get everything settled down.

Good to hear. That must feel good. Good to see you at Bonneville. I wish we could have talked more. Good job by the Opal boys.

With the fall car show season nearly at the end (leaves are down up here..)and with some other non-car stuff done, times coming to install the 4L80E into the truck. New driveshaft & cross-member are needed. The existing cross member dates back the original built and has a few too many - gotta make it work mods so time for a new one.
Once the '80 is in an settled down, next up is to install and plumb the alky fuel system.

Since Aug been slowly enabling items like active boost control, and knock sensing.

I have had to replace 3 thermocouples - the original ones contacted the down pipe last year. If they were cut short say at 36" from the tip they could be reused. Interested? $10ea + shipping.

Quick update..

The 4L80 in 99% installed - just the dipstick tube to complete. All the parts for the meth fuel system are on order..

Keep us up on it and post some pictures.

Well finally road tested the 4L80 today - the trans is working well - just a little clean up to do.

FYI - the same engine - transmission adapter plate can be used to bolt up any transmission that will bolt up to a 230/292 or SBC/BBC or LS engine. Flywheels are available from Jerry W.

Non 4l60E (these are native to the factory engine install and don't need any special parts) automatics bolt in using the 4200 flex plate, the block to trans adapter plate and t/c spacer. The starter location stays in the 4200 position, the starter itself gets replaced with a tilton with a billet adapter from Pohill Racing Inovations.

The reason for the starter change is to avoid having to cut a relief for the 4200 stock starter nose in the 1 O'clock position in the mating bell housing.

If you have a big enough TIG and fab equipment then you could add a bump to the bell and forgo the starter - just watch the distortion when welding - the bell is about 1/4 to 5/16" thick. Suggest you have it bolted to a engine block while welding.

Adapter plate and T/C spacer will be up on my web page shortly. One more piece of the puzzle done.


Some pix I took along the way

4l80 to 4200

Starter - tilton with adapter LH, stock RH

Pix of the install once I get the truck back up in the air.

Just a quick question. Why couldn't the removable bellhousing from the 4l60e be used in some fashion to mount an aftermarket trans. such an a Tremec or Richmond?

Yes this saves the cost of the tilton starter/adapter but requires a bit of work for the clutch linkage..

So 2 choices - adapt the back of the block to the bell or adapt the 4l60e bell to the trans, like this... bell to trans adapter plate The center hole can be made to any size.

Really all the parts except engine mounts are available now to do swaps. Lime-swap has the wiring/pcm down to hook up 4-6 wires so that end is not to hard.

Once you strip off the intake manifold insulation, dump the air box and add a bit of paint there not much plastic on this engine.

But you can only lead a horse to water....

maybe he aint thirsty-you know how they make a camel drink? Something to do with a heavy weight around the neck and a coupla bricks

Horses don't even have toes, much less articulated thumbs, however if you dont watch it in the exercise above you might get crippled thumbs