Inliners International Forums General Discussion Blown and Injected 292 Turbo help needed

Jerry,

Just reread your original post, thought you wanted boost for on the highway, not low end as you stated. But it still does not change much. It's engine load VS RPM that determines boost.

From my experience I know you would not any smaller of wheel than a "P" with a A/R not any less than .81 .

As I said in a early post I had a 270 cu.in. flathead with a 60-1 "P" wheel and an A/R of 1.15 and it would make boost in neutral.

I run a much larger turbo with a "S" wheel and .96 A/R and on the street the boost follows the gas pedal to full boost (35psi) in about 10 to 20 feet. I don't know how you would want it any quicker.

MBHD,
Never seen or heard of A/R ratio stated as CM size, would like to know what it means, weird.

Harry

Harry,
none of the Mitsubishi turbos have any other way to identify the A/R, inside the inlet of the turbine housing they cast the size, 8,10,12, 14 etc.

Also, how well do you think your turbo will spool when running 4.56 rear gears & a 3 speed manual trans?
Just curious.
What rear gears are you running & what is the stall on your trans?
Harry,
with all do respect, I think comparing your car w/tall gears & a high stall torque converter is not a good comparision on how his 292 mild engine will spool up a turbo. Just my 2 cents.

MBHD

MBHD,
I have ran 4.56 gears spooled the same about 2500- 3000 on the street.

Stall is a result for the load on the car, roll into the throttle on the street and it's 3000, put in on the brake and it's 5000, rear gear only matters on the top end.

My engine is very mild 8-1 compresion, mild cam , very poor flow head, but makes over 700 HP, with no lag, most of what everyone calls lag is fuel lag not the turbo.

Will say no one should run a manual trans with a turbo, It's too hard to put a load on the engine, and keep it there on the shift, why shift a car when a converter is an infinite ratio trans.

Floor it and hold on!!!

Harry

Ok, my point exactly.
Running 4.56 gears & a manual trans will not put much of a load on the engine & will not get into boost much.

Just like you stated, "one should run a manual trans with a turbo, It's too hard to put a load on the engine"

I agree about a turbo & an auto trans, so much easier to launch w/boost & it puts more of a load on the engine which in turn increases the boost pressure.

Turbo cars/trucks respond better with taller rear gears.

MBHD

I have looked at many turbos on eBay because they have the largest selection and its a good learning tool, but reading some of the other forums a lot of people say "stay away from eBay (China) turbos". I know that some of these comments are not based on usage, just a personal opinion (anti-ebay, China).
There are a wide range in prices and not sure if this represents a quality level. One brand that seems like they could be OK are the CXRacing ones???
In the long run it may be better to spend a couple hundred more for a quality turbo that having to replace a cheaper one. I'm not going to be pushing one hard but don't want to double spend. A lesser expensive one would be fine if I thought dependable.
Has anyone has any experience with eBay turbos and would you want to express it.

Thanks, Jerry

MBHD,

No, I said that gears don't make a difference, and a manual transmission will make boost from a roll. You can put the smallest turbine on a engine and it will be hard to make boost in neutral or the clutch pushed in.

With a small turbine it may feel powerfull but it will be a dog.

As for turbos I believe, " Pay me now or pay me again latter"

Harry

Just killing some time and decided to look at Craigslist and found this Holset.
http://knoxville.craigslist.org/pts/3180364181.html

Haven't been able to get in touch with him to get any numbers but was wondering if it might be worth pursuing. Not to far from Knoxville and would be easy to go and take a look. With my almost zero knowledge of turbos not sure what to look for or how to identify what it is. Any thoughts?

Not sure how accurate these numbers/sizing are but I found this about Mitsubishi turbine housing sizing.

10 CM = 0.7125 A/R
12 CM = 0.855 A/R
14 CM= 0.9965 A/R


So if a 14 CM is a .9965 A/R, We (SYCLONE & TYPHOON owners w/262 C.I. engine) recommend a 2600 to 2800 Stall (some even say to use 3000 stall minimum) to get the turbo to boost up fairly quickly.

Guys have installed a turbo w/a 14 CM turbine housing w/a 2100 stock stall torque converter & in every case the Syclone & Typhoons have run slower & top speed was not any better.

MBHD

MBHD,

So why are you saying guys using 14 cm turbine (.99 a/r) and a stock 2100 converter don't work, when you just said you need a 2600 to 2800 stall to get boost with a 14cm turbine, sounds like the way to go.

Why do you want the boost to come in so early, what RPM would the boost come in with a small turbine 1800- 2000.

What is peak torque on a stock 292 - 2600-2800 isn't that were you want your stall anyway.

Harry

Harry,

the 14 cm housing does not work because on a stock engine & torque converter is too tight, some guys are only able to get 2-4 PSI (some, less than 2 psi) of boost pressure with the throttle floored & brakes applied.

That is a big differnce when launching 2-4 psi (w/a 14 CM housing) VS launching w/a 8 CM stock or even a 10 CM housing) @ 10, 12, 15 + psi!

60 ft times w/a stock turbo & converter are as low as 1.65 VS a 14 CM stock turbo & converter running 2.2- 2.5+ 60 ft times.
Also, using the 14 cm housing does let the exhaust breath a lot better, but not enough to make up for it in the top end.

Using a 14 CM housing, it makes for a slow spooling turbo. Even when launching @ say 4 psi, the boost comes in real slow still after the truck starts to move, the 60 ft really suffers. It just does not work w/a stock torque converter.

Now, when you use a looser converter, it spools up the turbo OK, but usually @ a MPH loss (depending on what stall)

Peak torque on our engines comes in @ 3000 RPM.

I can only speak for how my Syclone runs first hand. I like to run as tight of a converter as possible to keep up the MPH.

With my truck I can launch @ 2,10,15, or 20PSI+ boost pressure.
I would not be able to do that w/a 14 CM turbine housing as quickly.
By the time it (the 14 CM housing) can boost up that high I would be super heating up the trans fluid.

So in general, a 14 CM housing is not a good choice for a day to day daily driver especially w/a stock torque converter.
It's just plain lazy.

Believe me, I tried them all, 8, 10, 12, & 14 CM turbine housings.
The 14 CM housing just does not work on a stock converter if you want to run quick ET's.

I am pretty sure if I had a looser converter 2600-2800 RPM & a 14 CM turbine housing my Syclone could possibly drop 2 to 5 tenths in the 1/4.

My Syclone is a street vehicle & I do not want to sacrifice my great low end grunt/power the engine produces for possibly a little better top speed power & worse ET.

I do plan on using my 14 CM housing again, but not until I install a better suited converter.

Here are the mods I am doing on my 14 CM housing, it's in the works, just not a priority.

I dynoed my old smaller turbo TD06H-20G & it made 386 HP & averaged 550 ft lbs of torque & seen as high as 560 ft lbs @ 21 PSI to the wheels.
I am going to dyno tune my Syclone this next Sunday & hope to make it run smoother & better drivabilty better MPG & ultimately make more power. Who knows?

Cant say for sure we will be able to do so, a friend & I are learning how to tune w/tuning equipment from Moates & Tuner pro 5RT
http://www.moates.net/apu1-autoprom-package-usb-version.html

http://www.tunerpro.net/


I am in the process of haveing the wastegate valve separate from the turbine wheel hoping to get better/quicker turbo spool & better boost control.

MBHD,

I said a stock converter won't work with big housing so why not change it, it will not overheat the fluid, or just put a cooler on it. Has worked for me for 25 years.

Also why do you want a stock converter the converter stall should match the peak torque of the engine. And I'm talking about 292 inlines not V6s

If this is a street car you want power when you roll your foot into the throttle, not trying to make boost on the brakes. It's a stick shift trans.

Have you ever measured the turbine pressure VS the boost pressure I sure you would change your way of thinking about all of this if you would.

When you get it close to equal your car really wakes up in speed and ET.

Harry

Harry,

I agree about needing to change the converter, just have no $$ to do so & it's not a priority right now, I just drive it the way it is for now.

With the Syclone, you want to take advange of the AWD & you need it to boost as much as possible while on the brakes. Not when you roll into it. The main ET advantage w/a Syclone & Typhoon has over most street cars is it's ability to launch quick & not spin the tires much.
Usually the MPH is not good becuase of the AWD frictional HP & drivetrain losses.

Stock they do 0-60 4.6 sec in the rain.
I timed mine & got 3.8 seconds 0-60 MPH. But on dry pavement.

I know the exhaust pressure is high on the turbine side.
But like I said, when I used a 14 CM turbine housing it took off much slower, ET's suffered & was not fun to drive that way.

So in closing, I do need a looser converter & a larger turbine housing, but for now,it is staying the way it is ,exhaust corked up & all w/the smaller turbine housing.

4.3 liter V-6, 262 C.i. engine, 3600 LB truck (no driver) on pump gas 91 octane, that can be driven daily & runs 12.0 flat so far. Not extreemly fast , but not a slouch in my book.
It is a 100% stock engine, never touched or opened up.
I am happy w/it so far.

Next , hope to get in the 20's for MPG.

MBHD

Finally getting my thoughts back to the turbo project due to spending all my time remolding my past father-in-laws house for resale (as I have been doing for the last 6 months).
I found a couple of turbos locally and had worked up a trade but backed out and ended up trading my trading item for something else. One was a HX40W used but tight and the other was a Garrett T1 (which maps very good). The prices were around 350.00 to 400.00 which I felt was a little high so I passed.
Now I still may be delayed because I have torn the meniscus in my right knee and will have surgery on 9-4-12 and could be on crutches 6-8 weeks! My engine has been setting on the break-in stand (yet to be started) since the first of the year and may stay there longer. Part of this delay was to install the turbo while it was in a easy to work on position.
One question I do have, and I know the advantages of blow through, is the modifications that must be made to my Holley 390 for it to perform as a blow through keeps it from being used again as normally aspirated should I want to do so. Since I am only wanting to boost 8-10 lbs would the heat generated by compression be enough to be concerning with a pull through setup?
Thanks again for all the input that has been submitted.
Jerry

Most 390 Holley carbs are vacuum secondaries. The sec will not open if used as a blow thru. It must be converted to a manual sec setup.

A blow thru will perform better than a draw thru setup.

Forgot about the vacuum secondaries and yes mine does have them so this creates another problem. Bought the Holley brand new in the box for 250.00 so could consider reselling it and finding something else. Has only been mounted and never had fuel in it. I have the Offenhauser 4 barrel intake so what carb would work best if I go blow thru? I know that there are vendors that sell carbs already modified but are usually very large and expensive. As with all my projects they always "snowball" and I can see that this one will also but that is just part of it! May have to collect parts as I go along to spread out the cost.

Thanks, Jerry

You don't need to sell it. You can change the base plate to a mech.set-up Or simply put a small screw in the side plate and turn it into a mech.secondary.

NOW..I didn't know that...See,you are never to old to learn something new. Good info Larry !!!

I run a Holley 2300- 350 cfm. Does great, easy to mod. Easy to tune, hard to FINE tune because 2bbl. If that makes sense?

I would recommend. Holley makes a 500 cfm model also.

Boucher

Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look at it when I get back to home. Any thoughts on the draw thru as opposed to the blow thru with low boost. Also any post or articles on converting the Holley to blow thru. Tx.GD

Google hanger 18 modifications. Lots of info on the turbo forum also.

You can use the Holley 450 Mech.secondary plate.When I ran the Holley 600 on my offey I used a small screw in the secondary side and set it to where I wanted the secondarys to open.