Inliners International Forums General Discussion Engines 250 first start

Well after all the help I finally tried to start and its just not having it. I think it has to do with the distributerand timing. I got the number 1 to about 4 degrees btdc and got the rotor lined up accordingly and still nothing. Any ideas?

Thanks
Dustin

1 verify TDC is correct on the damper

2 remove coil wire to the distributor and verify that you have spark

3 remove #1 spark plug and shove a wet paper towel in the hole and crank the engine over by hand until it pops out - that will confirm that you are not out 360 deg

4 prime the carb and use some ether too

I don't know your cars configuration and history but those few steps are a good way to get any engine to fire properly.

I did all of that stuff. However I'm 90% sure that I set it on tdc exhaust instead of compression. So I'll rotate my distributor 180 and try again tomorrow

So just did all of that and tried to start and nothing happened so I took the first spark plug out to check to see if I was TDC compression and had my fiancee bump the starter and as soon as I did it backfired and caught the carb on fire. I think the timing right but I think the carb isnt set right?

Timing sounds wrong now. Start from the begining.
Pull the valve cover. Turn engine clockwise till intake #1 intake valve opens, keep turning till the TDC mark lines up. Point the distributor rotor to the # 1 location on cap. Stab dist and hold it down while bumping the starter to allign oil pump drive. Redo the plug wires with correct order 153624, I learned a valuable lesson by taking this part for granted once.

Tom

did you replace the damper with re-man one ?

No it's original damper and that's what I was going to do was get it to tdc compression then get distributer lined up. I didn't tighten down my valve cover that way if I had to mess with my valve lash I could and not waste a gasket. My finals are this week so I won't be able to mess with it until Thursday or Friday probably. Would the carb be causing problems with starting as well?

Also I can't seem to find a good way to turn it by hand I don't have a bolt on the end of my crank shaft

I always drill and tap the end of snout for a 7/16 fine thread bolt when the engines are out. Much needed for turning the engine over and installing damper.

Well....crap. Why didn't I think of that?

Everyone has there own methods. Here's one of mine when a) a carburetored engine wont't start, b) the engine has been setting a long time, or c) the engine is notorius for being difficult to start when cold.

If you don't smell unburnt gasoline after cracking the starter for a little while:

1)Remove the air filter and squirt/pour a small amount of gasoline into the barrels of the carburetor. You can use the accelerator jets by pumping the throttle, but you should look to confirm that fuel is actually being added.
2)Now waited for one minute, a full 60 seconds. This gives time for gasoline vapors to form in the manifold. It's the vapors that burn, not the liquid gasoline.
3)After waiting one minute, press and hold the gas pedal 1/2 to 3/4 open and use the starter to try and start the engine. No need to pump the throttle. If your ignition is functioning properly, some time between 3 to 6 seconds of turning over, the engine should at least fire. In a primitive way, you are feeding the engine a wide range of fuel/air mixtures. If it fires and momentarily runs, sometimes pumping the throttle will help keep it running, but don't act too quickly.
4) Repeat steps 2 & 3 if it temporily fired, died, failing to fire again.

Don't add excessive fuel, you can wash oil off the cylinder walls. Don't over rev the cold engine if it starts, so be quick with the gas pedal adjustment if necessary.

This may allow you to at least get the engine running so you can troubleshoot for leaks, fuel mixture adjustments, loose or bad spark plug wires, etc.

I have also used the above method successfully on difficult to-start-when-cold lawn mowers, that have the gasoline primer squeeze bulbs. The mower may take more speezes than the manual states.

bet the damper has slipped on its hub and timming marks are off. ALWAYS replace damper when doing a o/h. jmo
bob

well I figured out part of the problem was the control module in the distributor was bad. I put the new one in and set it in got two consistent back fires so I figured the timing was off, and it was so I fixed it......again and then nothing happened....

maybe I am not getting any compression?

I am going to try readjusting my valve lash, I hope this trying to start stuff isn't causing excessive wear. Everything had assembly lube on it and I am using oil with zinc and break in additive so.

More tips from my own frustrations:
1. Use an old-school points distributor so you can see WTF its doing with a known good coil. That way you can set the timing exactly without cranking it a lot.
2. Check the compression if youre not sure, or do a leakdown test (you can do that without cranking it any more)
3. Is it a new cam? Im so paranoid with the poor metallurgy and oils now that I want a known good EVERYTHING, engine, cam, carb, ignition so the only thing on my mind is the new cam and its mushy sensitive metal. If youre cranking and cranking on a brand new cam, not sure how that will affect the breakin. That red stuff is pretty sticky but not sure how much cranking will wipe it clean.

Ya everything is new in it and everything was soaked in assembly oil. The distributer is where it needs to be and the timing gears are lined up. I'm going to do a compression test and see but I'm pretty sure the valves are open because I can't feel any air. I just hope I don't tear anything up lot of money in it.

If you pull the fuel pump, I bet with a mirror maybe you could see a couple cam lobes to see if they are still coated with that sticky cam stuff and decide to either be brave or pull the cam and recoat it. An easy 5-minute check if it works!

Again, if you can do a leakdown (or even just shoot compressed air into each cylinder) you could see if the valves are open/closed without cranking it too much. Compression test is a lot of cranking!

Ok I will try the compressed air thing or the leak down like your saying and report back. Thanks a bunch for all the help

I figured it out the valves were really messed up. I need to reset them but turning the engine by hand will be interesting unless anyone has any tips. I have a strap wrench that seems to some what work. I can hear the air coming out now when I backed off all the valves.

Here is how I do the valves.
Here is the way I like to do it.

Take the harmonic damper and mark TDC as zero degrees, another mark at 120 and another at 240.

Next, put engine on compression stoke TDC on #1
Adjust both valves by loosening inner lock hex bolt in poliloc. Turn nut down till pushrod begins to move lifter cup or zero lash is found by wiggling pushrod. Then turn nut in a additional 1/2-3/4 turn.
Turn engine over 1/3 revolution or to next 120 degree mark. Perform same procedure to next cylineder in firing order.

Contiue till done.
Be sure to lock all of the polilocs.
Be sure to run a jug of GM EOS in your oil for breakin.

153
624
Adjust #1cyl when # 6 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position. (both # 6 cyl rockers arms are both moving)

Adjust #5cyl when # 2 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position.

Adjust #3 cyl when #4 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position.

Adjust #6 cyl when #1 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position.

Adjust #2 cyl when #5 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position.

Adjust # 4 cyl when # 3 cyl rocker arms are both in rocking position.

I don't explain it well , but hope it makes sense.
Doing it this way, requires less turns of the crankshaft.

MBHD

I did it the way stated above and I was right no compression because valves were open. The more I adjusted I noticed more difficulty in the crank. I was also watching the rotor and it was in the right firing order. The cam did still have some red stuff on it still. Got break in additive in and I checked compression by covering the hole with my finger and its defiantly a lot. So I will put valve cover on and try to start her up for cam break in tomorrow proving my carburetor decides to cooperate. Thanks for all the help guys!

I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Goodluck.

Be sure to have everything ready to run this engine at 2000 rpm for 20 minutes. This is a must for cam break in.

So be sure radiator is full, oil topped off, gas in it. Set timing just good enough to make it run at 2000 rpm as fast as possibly. Do not let idle.

Get a nice AC powered fan in front of radiator to help cool. Have the exhaust OUTSIDE the shop.

Should I hook up my gas pedal for that?

Have everything hooked up. You will not be able to hold the throttle for 20 minutes on a hot- loud engine by hand.

Ok guys now I am having trouble hooking up the linkage and the cable. The Offenhauser came with some stuff but not sure what to hook up where the instructions are not that clear. the carb is a holley 9834-3, its to big I know but it will have to do until a poor college student can get a better one. Pictures of the setup are below. Thanks guys.

Dustin

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y439/wdschell55/IMG_0501_zps3a37782a.jpg

Looks like you will need something like this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-4150-4160...5ae3fa5&vxp=mtr

Ok guys so I have everything hooked up, and ready for cam break in and its trying to start but I think it might be still out of time, but the rotor is where it is suppose to be when the piston is top dead center and the valves I adjusted according to the last post 153624. I did #1 valves when #6 were rocking etc. here is a video

http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/wdschell55/media/TruckVid_zps21fbc38f.mp4.html

Just a thought, it could be 180 degrees out. Rotor pointed to the right spot at the top os the exhaust stroke instead of compression. Are both valves closed in the firing position or is the exhaust open?

Would it still run like that if distributer was 180 out?

Yes, both valves will be closed. Take out the #1 spark plug and bump the engine over slowly. Stick your thumb over the spark plug hole and as the balancer approaches the TDC mark on your timing tab, you will feel compression trying to push your thumb away from the plug hole. This happens only on every other complete revolution of the engine, so if you don't feel the compression on it the first time around, you'll need to catch it on the next one. At this moment, turn the balancer to align the timing marks on your balancer/timing tab, then remove the distributor cap to verify it is in phase with the cam. With the balancer still at TDC, if your rotor isn't aligned with #1 on the cap, then align it at this time either by removing and re-indexing into the engine or by turning it clockwise/counterclockwise it you have enough travel with it.

It wont run at all with it 180° out.

Well I meant will it do what it did in the video if the distributer was wrong?

Sorry, I didn't see the video. It would probably backfire depending how much you could change the actual timing by turning the distributor.

Look at post #75253 for a quick how-to to verify your timing/distributor install.

Timing is where it needs to be and it runs when we pump the gas and keep pumping but as soon as you let off it dies. I think it's a fuel issue not timing because when it runs it sounds ok

I did watch the video. Timing is only slightly off. That carb is not supplying fuel.
Is it a mech pump or electric?

You can prime the carb by dumping fuel in the vent tube.

Remember 2K rpms for 20 minutes for the cam to break in.

The pump is mechanical. And when I dump fuel in the carb it will run until all of that fuel burns out and then shut off again and yes I remember the 2n for 20 min if I can get it started haha. Could vacuum stop it from running?

Just my $.02:

Mechanical pumps don't pump much at all if they get dry. (From just sitting for a while). Not even enough to draw fuel from the tank. Try to prime the pump, squirt fuel through the inlet or outlet to get some fuel in the pump diaphgram. Or you can open the fuel fill cap and try to shoot compressed air in there; cover the opening with your hand and shoot air in between your fingers. You don't need much pressure, very little is required to get the fuel flowing out towards the pump. Alternatively, you can try to suck fuel out from the hose coming to the pump. You may have a blockage somewhere too.