Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance New Guy Here. 68 Camaro with an L6 250.

Now for an unknown rich uncle to leave me his wealth...

And I thought my 292 build was sick. lol! That'll be one sweet engine if you can pull it off. I have another 292 I planned similar...sissel head...cam..pistons and turbo. first I gotta finish mine though. haha Then figure out a good truck for a turbo build.

Don't get too excited. It'll be a couple years... Doing this in phases to keep the wife happy. A little bit at a time.

Whenever she complains I remind her how scary it used to be merging onto a highway. Now? Not so much...

I'm kinda thinking the Sissle head might be too much denero for not enough power. Spinny thingy first then if I'm still craving power I'll buy the Sissle head and sell my (by then) worked over head to offset the cost a bit.

But first our house is going on the market today so we need to sell it before I even think about anything else.

OK so the next thing I'm doing is swapping transmissions.

Currently have a glide.

I want to go with a 200R4 trans. Looking around at the local 'yards that's about $300-350. Shift linkage kit is about $30 (needed?).

What torque converter should I get? Budget minded (you know who you are..) and not necessarily for the long haul. Just something cheap to match up with what I have. The trans and torque converter are now the weak link in the speed chain.

200r4 because it'll drop right in. I can even get the bezel for the column shift for a whole $20. Trying to keep this swap cheap and easy if possible. If it goes well and the kick-down linkage is easy enough to adapt I might even rotate the carb at the same time. The only reason I haven't done it yet is because of the kickdown linkage. Can't find an easy way to change it without cutting, welding, etc.

...not that I'm opposed to cutting and welding.

On mine, I just got the cheapest ~2,500rpm stall converter I could find on Amazon or Ebay, but with the low torque of a six it won't stall that high (compared to an average V8 for which the rating is based on). Near as I can tell it works perfectly normal with my combination.

You may want to consider looking at mounting the TV cable to the firewall and gas pedal directly, then you can move the carb any which way you want and just worry about the throttle cable. To put it on the firewall you will need a pressure gauge on the transmission to make sure you have the right TV cable adjustment (a gauge is even recommended for a normal setup..). I'd get a universal adjustable cable or a long cable for a TPI engine or such.

If you get a 200R4, make sure it has a dual bolt pattern, some, have only B.O.P. ( Buick, Olds, Pontiac ) bolt pattern.
Here is a dual pattern http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004R-200R4-Tran...4ea&vxp=mtr

1800-2100
http://www.transdepot.net/2004R-Torque-C...CFUuTfgodQ20AbA

2200- 2500
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TH200C-200-4R-20...acc&vxp=mtr

2400-2800
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2400-2800-Stall-...ee7&vxp=mtr

TheSilverBuick,
what kind of stall are you seeing with the 2500 stall converter?

MBHD

Thanks, Silver, but the problem isn't the throttle. It's the Trans kickdown.

That said going with a 200r4 that problem goes away.

Also thank both of you for torque converter advice. My question is more which stall speed than which one. Should I go low or high?

I would get a 2400-2800 stall, you will be lucky if you see a brake stall of 2000 RPM.

Lock-up type, that way you still can knock down some decent MPG's.

I have a 10" 3500 stall converter in my Camaro, the most brake stall I ever saw was 2800 RPM, flash stall of 3000 with a supercharger hooked up.

MBHD

I don't understand how going from a kick down cable to a TV cable makes a problem go away? If anything the problem is likely to be more troublesome....

I only see about 1,600-1,700 stall. I bought that 2200-2500 stall one off ebay as it was the lowest cost. My motivation was that I rebuilt the 200-4r, it was the first automatic transmission I've ever opened up, let alone attempt a rebuild, and didn't want to spend a ton of money on a converter if I made the transmission a paperweight.

My 68 doesn't have a cable. It has a rod right now. When I go to the 200 I'll be swapping it out for a cable of sorts.

Update,
Well rather than keep hijacking the mshaw thread, here is a continuation on the Gonkulation of gbauer's car.

Way back up on pg1 of this thread I had Gonkulated
Torq 231 at 2800
Powr 174 at 4300
2.66
11.44 at 63.0
17.78 at 76.9
10.4 0-60mph
This was for a stock 250, 8.5cr, Langdon iron headers, offy intake, 390 Holley.

gbauer asked about the next steps -
Lump port and cam (I tried a mile one 194-204-110), same 8.5cr
Torq 257 at 3300
Powr 211 at 4700
2.60 still a dog here
10.97 at 66.4
16.96 at 81.6
I remember celebrating when my 122cid Pinto broke into the 16s back in 1981. Its like a v8 car breaking into the 14s, same feeling of accomplishment.

Ok, next the 200-4r
200-4r, no other changes
2.32
10.20 at 68.6
16.06 at 82.6
8.1 0-60mph this was fast enough to mess with 390 Galaxies back in the day....

With the overdrive I swapped out the 3.08 gears (guessing that's whats in there now?) for a 3.55 posi
2.21
10.01 at 68.0
15.84 at 83.8
7.7 0-60mph
I have a 200-4r sitting on the floor waiting to go into my own Nova, this is reminding me why I want to do that. Well over a second quicker when you take advantage and re-gear it for the overdrive.

So.... trans and gears it is! Thanks!

How about trans, gears and head work all together? Maybe up the compression to 10:1 since I'm doing the head anyway. Won't be much more money so why not? I can always go with a thicker head gasket later to lower compression for FI if I ever get there (or sell the worked head and redo another one for the job. Probably wouldn't be much out of pocket going that route). Another option is to get nice, low compression forged pistons when I do the turbo.

I couldn't get the apps to work right. Have to do that another day.

...instead I "calibrated" my speedo against my GPS. At 60 it read exactly 50mph. I used the stopwatch app on my cell 3 times. Every single time it was exactly 11 seconds to 60.

Cool! Gonkulator predicted 0-60mph in 10.44 sec, along the way to a 17.76 at 77.0 1/4 mile. Close enough!

When the 200-4R was "put in" was that with the head work and cam or without it? Either way the improvement over a power glide is very impressive! I love seeing different cars get "Gonkulated" and am amazed at how close to what really happens in the real world. I also have to keep in mind that that 68 Camaro is right now 4mph faster than me in the 1/4 mile. Sounds like I have work to do! Jay 6155

Oh, the 16.06 at 82.6mph included all the engine mods above it, Langdons, Offy/390, 194-204 cam, lump port head / valves.

So the 0.9 sec gain was just from the 200-4r.

A powerglide 3.08 is like launching in 2nd gear - great for consistency, but not so good for E.T.'s - the old adage, "races are won or lost in the 1st 60 feet" which is not where the powerglide shines.

Thanks for your comments about the Gonkulator.

I'll be sure to keep making it hard for you to beat!

I don't see much NOx being used around here. I'm considering that route very hard now. It's a cheap thrill and only there when I want it. Might do that when I run out of other fun things to do to the car.

2.5 years ago I bought this thing barely running. All sorts if electrical issues, rotted floors, and dangerous to drive. Now it wins shows. Even I wonder what it'll look like in 2.5 more years....

The Gonkulator certainly has shown me the light in what to do next! Pretty soon I'm going to run out of cheap stuff to go fast though. Driving it last night I have to question my carb now. Is it big enough? The secondary spring definitely needs to go a step lighter. You can really feel it open. Too late, that is. Needs more air in. Air out is fine. I guess that's what the lumps and valves are for...

Right now you would get to the end of the track about 1 1/4 seconds sooner also. At least based on my stopwatch time. Jay6155

So... how do I tell if I have a stuck lifter?

I had a misfire at idle. I know it's the #6 cylinder. Pulled a plug wire and have spark but idle doesn't change when #6 is pulled. All others have a noticeable drop in RPM when their wire is pulled.

I adjusted the lifters and the idle smoothed out. Running MUCH better now but not perfectly smooth like it should be on a stock cam.

Here's a pic of the mess under my shiny valve cover:



...and that's AFTER being cleaned! The first time I popped the cover I couldn't see the head bolts.

Here's the plugs in order.



#6 is as the top, #1 at the bottom.

I drove it into work today because I haven't driven it a single mile in a month. Ran really well until lunch time when I went to restart it. Idles rough again. Give it a blip of throttle and it's fine.

I think one of the #6 lifters might be not holding pressure. It could be either one as far as I know.

How would I tell if it's dead and how do you change lifters?

Usually a stuck lifter will clatter a bit. Also, you would be able to spin your pushrod when the valve is closed, because the lifter isn't pressing it up like it should be. I have even measured how far the pushrod is sticking out of the head when the lifter is in the base circle (valve closed, lowest spot). You could pull the side cover off, pull the rocker off, remove the pushrod, then the lifter. Might want to measure lift as well, make sure that you didn't round a cam lobe off.

I forgot to mention that I measured the lift and that was fine.

A buddy is loaning me his compression tester so hopefully I can check that tonight.

Something's not quite right but I haven't been able to nail it down. Spark is great. Plenty of fuel and air. I don't want to pull the head just yet (that's this winter's project). Just thought if it's as simple as a lifter I can do that without much effort.

May not be a lifter either. A sticky valve or weak spring will cause that to. Recessed valves will cause a misfire and drop in compression. On my old 292 I had to adjust each intake valve to .006 clearance and the exhaust valve at .008 clearance. Ran pretty smooth after that, but my compression was tops at 110 pounds. Sucker pulled like a dream though. lol Mine clattered like a cummins when cold and when warmed up it got somewhat quiet. But my lifters were shot.

Didn't get a chance to do the compression test. In fact I only drove the car around the block so I could have full access to my garage while cleaning my wife's car and working in the back yard.

Maybe tonight.

I tried to do the vacuum test. No luck with the tools borrowed.

That said I think I found the real cause of the problem.



Anyone have a spare 4150 Holly base laying around? I can sure use one... trying not to spend money before we move. House is on the market. Wife isn't happy with my apparent strength at the moment...

Well that sucks.
They can be welded, not sure if JB weld would hold it even temporarily.

The only bases that will even physically fit would be from
390 Holley
450-465 Holley
550 Holley
The 550 Holley was used on lots of Ford trucks in the mid-1970s, decent chance of finding one at swap meets. The 390 Holley was used on International Harvester lots of years but still fairly rare.
The 600 Holley has 1-9/16 throttles, not the same, I don't think they will interchange although they are dirt cheap of course.
Some of the passages and the gasket are different too, have to make sure it all matches up.

Poking around online: new base is about $110. Not too bad.

At this point I've replaced about everything else on the carb so....

I got a holley, but I'm on the other side. Would probably be that much just to send it. lol

I don't know how much of a hurry you are in, or if I have one, or if they are all the same if I do, but if I have one in my carburetor parts pile it's yours for the cost of a USPS flat rate box.

I'll try to remember to check tonight and can put it in the mail tomorrow if I have one. May want to PM me a mailing address, or you can wait until I verify I have one. I know I have one complete Holley, and I cut one up to use on my EFI conversion, but I "think" I have one more in pieces. They came with my house and were likely for Ford 390's based on the previous owner's parts collection he left behind.

Be sure it's aluminum before you try to weld it!

Lots of carb parts are zinc. I have had zero luck trying to weld zinc. Pretty sure it makes toxic fumes too.

SilverBuik: PM sent.

I'm not going to try welding it. If Silver's works then I'm back in business!

...at least I figured out my idle problem...

I'm now considering just going up a size in carb. I kinda felt like the 390 wasn't breathing enough and it certainly won't once I do the head and cam this winter. 450 CFM? Bigger?

Thoughts?

With the lump head and 194-204 cam, the Gonkulator puts your build at
Torq 257 at 3300
Powr 211 at 4700

Going to a 450 Holley adds 0 ftlb and 2 hp.
In my carb shootout testing on the car at 170-180hp, the 390 and 450 Holleys ran just about the same, it was more a matter of jets, weather, etc as to which one "won". The 390 would open the secondary most of the way, the 450 would open it maybe half way. Bigger than 450 I think you'd start losing down low.

Find a cheap 600 Holley at a swap meet and try it on there, they are still $20-$30 and easy to find. That is likely TOO big but you never know with carbs til you try em on a given combo.

I had a 600 edelbrock on my 292. No problems. I could put it to the floor and pull a hill in 3rd from almost a dead stop. Twisted 6 had a 600 holley on a 250...all he ever told me was "It ran a little rich, but it ran fine" lol

Holley is sending me a new base for 88 shipped.

I'll wait on more air and fuel until I go efi.

Still no base on hand so Friday night I JB Welded the broken one so we could drive it this weekend. So far so good but I'm still getting a #6 misfire. Plenty of spark. Just no boom. Gotta be short on air and fuel.

For the time being I'm leaving it as is. I'm pulling the head this winter anyway.

Sure your valves aren't to tight on number 6?

Yep. Did it twice just to make sure:

Back off until it gets noisy. 1/2 turn tighter.

Careful, that method will fool you if the hydraulic tappets are not behaving the way you expect! You may want to do it with the engine off to be sure of your zero lash point.

Well I'll be pulling the valve cover later this week anyway when the new gasket gets in.

What's the procedure with the engine off?