Inliners International Forums General Discussion Hi Performance so now that the 292 is off the dyno What stall?

Hey guys! Hope you all had a great New Years. As most of you know I got my 292 back From Larry's with some pretty good dyno numbers.
Now I have a dilemma. I don't have a clue what stall speed I need. I have been told everywhere from 1600 from guys off the street to 3200 from the guys at the motor shop. A call to TCI was pretty much useless as the kid I talked to seemed to have spent the last hours popping his pimples and smoking his bong. All he did was read back their product list and call me dude.
The Owner up at Larry's seems to think that because the motor is making its max torque at 3900 the stall should be between 3000 and 3200 but for a weekend driver that seems a little loose to me? Plus doesn't the 700r4 have a really low 1st gear. I don't want to have to put wheelie bars on my truck if you know what i mean.
I was hoping you guys could give some advice on what stall converter I need. Here's some back ground. Thanks a bunch guys!!!
1946 Chevy Pickup for weekend driving around not much highway mostly side roads
700r4 with lockup
3:73 12 bolt rear
28"tall tires
10:1 compression
Tom's mid range cam
286 hp
321 ft. torque at 3900

I am going through the same thing with a different combination . I tried to call Hughes today but was too late in the day to talk to anyone . One thing that helps you is the lockup feature. If you use that you can get away with more stall speed than with a non lockup trans. What is a good idle speed for your engine? I would say anything much more than 700 rpm and a stock converter will try to drag the truck at red lights. If it will idle down I would try a stock converter first if you have one. I would also contact Hughes when they are open. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Jay 6155

A newbie question for curiosity (and the eventual transmission swap). What behavior is the high RPM stall? I had it in my head that meant you had to meet that RPM to move, but it sounds different with low speed engagement.

Is there an explanation thread on how this works?

Thanks!
Mark

IIRC, you would want your torque converter to stall slightly below peak torque. For drag racing.

Just because you get a torque converter that has a stall speed of say 3200 RPM, does not mean your truck will not really move until 3200 RPM's is reached. (for the newbies)

When you get a good quality torque converter, they do not slip that much & will drive just like a low stall converter, that is until you get on the throttle hard, then that 3200 stall converter will reach that RPM quickly.

If you are not too worried about taking off the absolute best it can, and would be able to light up the tires if needed to. then I would say a 2600-2800 stall.

Make sure it is a lock-up converter, so your mileage is not too bad when using a higher stall converter.

It depends on what you want out of your vehicle. Race it, street vehicle, do you want best mileage possible & not worried about getting the best take off?

http://lmgtfy.com/
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stall+torque+converter

http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/10-Understanding-Stall-Speed

MBHD

Thank you MBHD! 2600-2800 was the direction I was leaning. I just can't get my head to wrap around the principles of back road country driving at say 40-maybe 50 mph tops and having a high stall TC staying engaged, and not snapping my head off at take off.

I guess the bigger question now is.....how do you know what a quality TC is. How can their be such a big difference in price with so few parts inside of a TC. I have seen anywhere from $150-$1000 and up. What are the high end manufacturers doing different.

I think that the "high end" converters are made not to fail behind a 1000hp big block and drag slicks on the car. They are made stronger to handle the high hp and abuse. I have been told to stay away from cheap converters. You get what you pay for. Jay6155

Stan,
if you only plan on driving down back roads & only going 40-50 MPH, I would just use a 2400 Stall tops, with having a 3:06 first gear & 3:73 gears, & a 292 pushing it to go, , you should have no problem with it being able to take off quickly.

How much does your 46 Chevy weigh, 3000 LBS?

You do not seem too concerned about being able to 60 ft the fastest so, just anyone of those off the shelf converter would be fine to use IMO.
Example: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-22-25
Just make sure to get a lock-up converter as I stated before.

Here is a B&M: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bmm-70419

Having a stall in the 1600-2100 range is not worth even getting IMO,.
Having a Lock-up converter & having a higher stall, the best of both worlds.

It took forever for Tlowe to listen to me to get a higher stall converter for his Elky, he still did not get what I suggested, but it is much better than what he had initially.

MBHD

I love reading all the theory's on stall convertors. The opinions are all over the place.

I have setup a few 700r4 combos and driven the tar out of them. My first choice to you (Stan) would be a 1800 stall. You will not believe how nice that truck is going to be to drive.
Like Hank said, I had a lower stall (1600) on my turbo 292 w/3.55's. It was good till I tore it up. Installed a budget 2000 stall and do not care for the street manners of it.

The 2400 and up stalls are going to feel like you are wasting all that tq in just a spinning engine.

This is just my2cents on the stall. Unless you're going to be foot braking Or on a Trans Brake a lot( meaning Racing ) there is not much need for a stall much Over what your cam is going to idling at. That is why Most Stock are only about 100 rpm over idle. So lets just say Your Cam/ Motor Build is going to idle at 1000/1200 rpm Then you would be just fine with something around 12-1400. This is just my2Cents on a daily driver

IMO, Tlowe has a very poorly made torque converter that just plan slips, & slips more than it needs to.

I said before, my moms completely stock 1999 Olds Intrigue 3.8 v-6 car, the torque converter brake stalls to 2600-2800 range.
This is factory GM torque converter that is made to work this way fellas.


Now, when you drive the car, it feels like a low stall torque converter of say 1600 stall, that is until you hit the throttle hard. then it will stall up higher & take off pretty good.

So just saying, you can have your cake & eat it to when it comes to a daily driver being able to take off quickly with having a higher stall, yet be able to lock up the torque converter & still knock out descent mileage.

As far as having 1200-1400 stall, where do I start, my 1997 350 SBC 250 HP 350 FT lbs of torque, 3:42 gears Silverado brake stalls at 1400 RPM, & is a complete slug because of this low stall,

How about a 2.5- 2.7 60 ft times slow, it would really benefit from a higher stall converter ,for my truck I would like 2000-2200 brake stall.

I bought my truck brand new & it has never, ever been able to spin the tires from a dead stop, all because of this crappy low stall converter, I am not wanting to race it, but would like it to take off better than it does, it is pretty pathetic.

If it would have 3:73-4:10's then I an sure it would light the tires, but would not be good on the freeway, too high of RPM.

MBHD

Your 1997 truck probably weighs 5000+ lbs also.
And the comparison to the 1999 Olds is a engine with a much lower tq rating. It needs the amplification to accelerate.

I think too much stall on a street driven vehicle gets old fast.

It was not a comparison I was after, just a statement regarding that a stock torque converter w/a factory brake stall of 2600- 2800 RPM, drives like my very low stall truck, you cannot tell when just driving around normally, that the Olds has a high stall converter.

Tlowe,
I think your converter does not work like a good quality converter does. I would get tired of your converter also, if it acts the way you say it does.
Once you ever get a good converter in there , you will understand what I am talking about.

My Syclone V-6, has a brake stall of 2100, & it feels just like my 350 powered truck w/a 1400 RPM brake stall converter , when driving around normal, you just cannot tell it is slipping @ all.
Even when I get on it hard, the Syclones converter is tight.
MBHD

Hey thanks for all the input guys! I would like to say all this has helped but I am going to have to sleep on it and see if I wake up even more confused.

I think my main misunderstanding is how a good converter say with a 3000 stall can feel just as comfortable driving as say a cheap 1800 stall TC. Don't the principles of fluid dynamics work the same in all converters no matter what the quality of the materials are? What am I missing? Does each manufacturers have their own vein design and configuration. Or is it just the quality of the materials used? Sorry for sounding so stupid.....

One last thing before I hit the hay here in snowy NJ....so ere is where we are at.
Larry's Power........3000-3200
Walt Pearce...........2800
MBHD...................2400
Tlowe....................1800
Twisted6...............1200-1400
TCI...........Anyone they make as long as the kid can keep puffin on his dubby
I guess it's going to be as straight forward selection as I thought.

For the sake of discussion , let's say that we have 2 different non-lockup torque converters, both of which brake stall at 3000 RPM behind your nice 292. Inside the converter there are several different ways to get from a stock stall range to the 3000RPM that we are talking about. One way is to reduce the diameter say from 12 inches to 10 inches. Assuming that both converters are the same diameter, they can still be quite different. Stator fin angle and number of fins, pump and impeller fin angle and number of fins, distance between pump and impeller.are just some of the things that I know of. From my limited knowledge, cheap converters have just a few mods inside to make it "slip" more while a good, well made converter has much more work done to the inside to minimize slippage in normal driving, yet give higher stall speed than stock. With a lock-up trans this becomes less important as the converter locks up when you get up to speed. I hope this helps, I am still learning. Jay6155

Stan,
FWIW here is what I guessed for your rig in the DeuceCoupe Gonkulator.
Assuming 3560 lb with driver (that's a guess) and the 390 Holley on top, here is what the Gonk said just by changing stall speed. I am also guessing at the stock stall I have no experience with the 700r4. I usually brake torq all my stuff to check the stall first. My powerglides stall from 1500-1800 or so depending on what engine is in front of them.

1600 stall
2.33 60ft
15.48 at 85.8 1/4 mile
6.99 0-60mph

2000 stall
2.18
15.28 at 85.9
6.77
If it wasn't a lockup this is where I'd stop. May not seem like much gain but 2.33 vs 2.18 in the 60ft is a BIG difference, you will feel it like a greyhound bus hit the rear bumper. And that's 2 carlengths quicker overall.

2400 stall
2.12
15.19 at 85.9
6.66
A lot of the new lockup cars stall in this range. Tops Ive seen is maybe 2600. Given that you have lockup I'd probably stop here at 2400 unless you plan a bigger cam.

2800 stall
2.09
15.13 at 86.0
6.58
I guess this would be ok with a lockup but getting a little slushy around town.

3200 stall
2.06
15.06 at 86.0
6.48
This is great if you need every last fenderlength.

As a last step I swapped on a 600 Holley for another 1 ftlb and +8 hp:
2.06
15.04 at 86.2
6.46
Worth it if you have a free one on the shelf but not to buy one. And the little 390 Holley will be a lot better driveability and easier on gas.

Finally Jay made some good comments - the Gonkulator doesn't separate a "good" converter from a "crappy" one and I've seen both in real timeslips. Cant quantify that so I'm always watching for folks that get incredibly good 60ft times (better than the Gonkulator predicts) and then who built their converter.

If it were ME, I'd use the stock 700r4 converter, get some timeslips, then if you're not happy, get a 2400 or so and see how much things really change.

One more Gonkulator comparison I ran this by accident!
With the ?stock? 1600 stall, the 390 Holley gave
2.33
15.48 at 85.8
6.99

The 600 Holley actually Gonkulates SLOWER with the 1600 converter as it loses off the line:
2.36
15.51 at 86.0
7.03
So if you stay stock converter the little carb is definitely the way to go. Of course, as I found in the carb shootout, sometimes an engine will just "like" a carb better than another one, regardless of size. Just have to try em.

Hey Deucecoupe! Thank you so much for the time you spent doing the calculations it is much appreciated.

Seeing as how my racing days are 20 years, 1 wife, 2 daughters, and a couple of dumpers on down the backstretch ago,......I think my days of fender lengths are far gone. LOL.
2400-2600 I think is what I am getting. Now it's just a matter of who's converter to by. I still like TCI (even though the guy on the phone was a bone head) but perhaps B&M, Yank or Hughes. Going to make a few calls tomorrow and place an order by the end of the week. Anybody have any other suggestions on a Manufacturer.

Don't have any more suggestions as far as company's go, but I would like to know what each company recommends and whether they recommend of of thier off the shelf units or custom made. Also very good to know would be whatever converter you end up with actually brake stalls in your truck compared to the advertised stall range. I am off this Friday and will call hughes and see what they say for my car. I would think we would be in the bottom end of the advertised stall range. (I would stall lower than you with the same converter) Jay6155

From what I hear. A Yank converter is pretty tight when driving around normal, does not feel really loose, not until you hit the throttle hard, then, it will stall to what they set the stall to..

Since you can give them your dyno numbers, weight of truck, gearing etc, it will not be a guessing game they (Yank) can custom make the converter for your application.

I would give them a call & see what they have to offer you & ask how there converters feel on the street.

F.A.Q. http://www.converter.cc/FAQ_s/45.htm

MBHD

A small update.....I just got off the phone with Dave Myers the owner of Yank converters. I gave him all the motor specs and dyno pulls and he seems to think his SS3200 converter is the way to go. He said that if it was coupled to a big block it would stall right at 3200 but with my six it would more than likely stall between 2400-2600 and be perfect for the street.

Stan,

glad you talked w/Yank.

2400 - 2600 stall will really wake up that 292 out of the hole.

But, like you said it is more for back road usage & not really made to race so I think a stall of 2400 tops is all you really need, but the choice is up to you.

Good luck.

Did you talk w/anyone else about converters?

MBHD

Stan,
I went over to my friends shop to tear apart a 4L80E trans I got off of craigslist for $80, he's been rebuilding transmissions for many years. He is also more current on todays converters for racing & street use.
I got the 4L80E trans mainly just for the case so I can mock it up on my Camaro to measure for a driveshaft & possibly make a cross member.

I asked him about the Yank converters & he says nobody uses those anymore.

He likes Circle D converters (warning, they are pricey ) https://www.circledspecialties.com/

& there are others he mentioned, COAN, http://www.coanracing.com/Catalog.asp?Section=CONVERTER
PTC. http://www.ptcrace.com/torque-converters-c-26.html?osCsid=e5307ad33aa37e57ed92c21da0d68ba3
So sorry for the time dated info I knew from several years ago about the Yank converters.

They are probably still good converters.
I have been out of the racing scene for a few years.

MBHD

I ilke coan

especially their tech support on oddball combinations like ours.

Stan,
How did it go?
What was your conclusion?
Are you happy with your choice or would you go for another stall now?
Hope to hear an update

Thanks

I wish I could say I made the right choice I just don't know yet as the truck is nowhere near finished. I ended up going with a 3200 stall from Yank Converters. The owner told me with my motor and dyno numbers the converter will act more like a 2600 stall.

I have a 351 CJ 2500 RPM converter in a street rod. My engine is probably making the same kind of torque a stock 351 CJ V8 does. It stalls around 2500 for me.

That, plus a line lock on the front wheels makes for a hot rod that is a blast to drive.



I think you made a wise choice.

And, contrary to popular opinion, a high stall converter is not horrible to drive on the street.

Thanks for update Stan!
Please get back with comments to your choice when you get it running - it will back this thread up PERFECT!
Good luck finishing your project.

Just my 2 cents but from what i have run I have found that a 292 will perform against a stall converter very similar to a v8 My 292 against the trans brake will pull by a BM 3200 stall converter too about 4000, which surprised me . Not a expensive converter but i think the 6s lower torque peak affects it differently.

Having 4.120" stroke has a lot to do with having torque equivalent to a V-8