tyb507, Good to see you back. I'm not sure which link "the one with the happy sun shinning over the cartoon depiction of environmentally-friendly ethanol production that seemed to leave out a few key steps?? I tried to go back and find it, but it is a bit tedious with a dialup. Thank you for the links. The links were informative and interesting, though they seem to be contradictory. As I read Agusta article I was giving more weight to Big Bills' concerns about food production. Especially when Pimental comments "it's morally wrong to grow crops so the wealthy can drive cars". Then Patzek calculates the cost of production of a gallon of ethanol equal to gas at $4.74 a gallon. In Patzeks' calculations are included government subsidies. Patzeks' also says he uses two models for his calculations. I can believe Patzek uses two models, since all the other reading I've done day it is difficult to figure all the costs of production. (btw were did you get your figures for BTUs to produce ethanol) The Times article seems to contradict Pimentals' morallity issue. The Times makes a case that the surplus agricultral production of the U.S., the subsidies the U.S. gives Agriculture, and the subsequent dumping of agricultural products on the world market are destroying the third worlds ability to produce any income from there agricultural products. No argument. Now wouldn't using excess U.S. production to create ethanol eliminate the subsidies and dumping? That would take the subsidies out of Patzeks' models. Patzek who works in the petroleum industry pumping water into dry wells to get any residual oil out. Where did Patzek get his expertise in the production cost of agriculture. Your right "I guess the pros and cons depend on who you ask, and their agenda."

Though mentioned, no real consideration given to ethanol for being environmentally friendly and renewable.

It takes more than concern, recycle, drive less, turn the thermostat down or up for the season.

Larry

Old Greek saying - Reasoning and understanding with moderation.

Ignorance can be fixed Stupidity is forever